Chapter two.
Erik Cargill:I'm Erik Cargill.
Rachel Elnar:And I'm Rachel Elnar. And this is Cheers and Tiers.
Erik Cargill:Design Leadership Tales Retold.
Rachel Elnar:Erik, we know both of today's guests through AIGA where both have spent years shaping chapters, mentoring designers, and pushing for a more inclusive community driven design culture. Oen works at the intersection of design and business focusing on creating meaningful products and services. And Carlos is a creative director and information architect whose work spans branding, typography, and he serves as the president emeritus of AIGA Detroit. And together, they bring decades of design leadership, community building, and a shared belief that design is a vehicle for connection and impact. So pleased to have them both here with us today.
Rachel Elnar:Please welcome Oen Hammonds and Carlos Estrada.
Erik Cargill:Welcome. Welcome, you two.
Carlos Estrada:Thank you. Thanks.
Rachel Elnar:Can you guys give us your OG, where you come from in terms of AIGA? Let's hear your AIGA backstories.
Oen Hammonds:Wow. Like, way back machine here. So I started in the student groups at my university back in Kentucky then Cincinnati. But before that, I was actually a part of a group called the Global Graphic Design Association, became AIGA Louisville back then as well too. But then joined the local Cincinnati chapter, became a education director there, moved from that position to BP where I served with Andrea McCorkle, my dear friend, awesome, amazing leader, and then moved from Cincinnati to Austin, Texas, where I'm at now.
Oen Hammonds:The the the team here wanted me to join immediately. I was like, oh, no. I need a break. Like, I just just got here. Like, just getting the lay of the land.
Oen Hammonds:But I would say, like, the first thing that I did do was go to an AIGA event here in Austin as a way of, like, getting to meet the community here. Eventually, I did join the chapter leadership board as the education director, again, seeing a trend here. Education director, became left, became a came back, became a VP, had to step in to become interim president for a year and a half because the previous president had to step down for personal reasons. And then officially got voted in as president for two and a half, three year term there for the Austin chapter, and then left, became a board advisor, still a board advisor. But in between there, the last official position I've held with AIGA as a national organization was the Board of National Board.
Oen Hammonds:Where I was a director community relations then as well too there.
Rachel Elnar:So an AIGA lifer, even in all of it.
Oen Hammonds:It's a little bit, yeah. Yeah.
Carlos Estrada:All right. Well, I'm still coming to terms of being called an OG, but I can embrace it.
Oen Hammonds:Yes. Own it. Own it, Carlos.
Carlos Estrada:I'm gonna own it. When I see a youngin', when I see this little new design, come here, come here. With love, of course, with love. Thank you for having me, all of you. I think one of the strengths of AIGA is that we've all crossed paths, like at a retreat, since that's what we're talking about, throughout the years, throughout the decade, which I think is amazing how it connects people.
Carlos Estrada:For me, for AIGA, I started as Oen in college. I've never heard of AIGA, which is funny because when I went to college, never heard of NPR either. I'm like, What's this you say? I'm like, I don't know what you all are on, but I don't know what you're listening to. So anyway, I started an AIGA in 2003 with the Chicago chapter.
Carlos Estrada:Around twenty thirteen-twelve, the Grand Rapids West Michigan chapter was being formed, so I was volunteering for all these events. And because if you volunteer, you get in for free, at least at most of them, to whoever's listening, you know, there's benefits and participation. So then a spot opened up, and I was curious at one of the annual meetings, and it was for a D and I director. And at that time, I was working in publishing, and design just seemed so big. I'm like, I can't be on the board.
Carlos Estrada:I've never been on the board, you know, I don't know what this is all about. But when I heard DNI, something I'm famous for before Beyonce, is like, Oh, I can do that. Because I woke up like this. Like, my whole life. I have been, you know, my nephew calls it brownish.
Carlos Estrada:So, you know, anyhow, in 2014, I joined the board, I was accepted. I became the first D and I director for AIGA West Michigan, served, beyond my turn till around 2017, And then took a three month hiatus for the summer and Detroit called and it was Kimmy Parker, wherever you're at. What up, girl? She asked if I would sit on the Detroit board because not only in 2014 I was on the board for AJA West Michigan, but in 2015 I joined the DNI task force at a national level. So, 2017, joined the Detroit board and I've been there since.
Carlos Estrada:I started as vice president of programming, and then now I'm President Emeritus. So two years ago or a year and a half ago, I was President for about, I think, three years. You know, the bylaws give you a term, but to keep the community thriving, sometimes you're always going past the term limit.
Oen Hammonds:Yeah.
Carlos Estrada:And, people think you're crazy, but, you know, when you invest in people, even people you don't know, I think it comes back to you in a good way. And then the same thing with, DNI, the task force, in its third iteration of like 100 and what, eight, ten years for ARJ being in existence, started in 2014 and ended this year in July 2025. The last three years, I became chair and I was past my term and it was time to say goodbye. And now it's time for the new blood to raise up again. But I made myself available to advise and whatnot.
Carlos Estrada:And I think we'll get to it later, but all of what I mentioned did come from retreats. There are a lot of movements within ARJ that were birthed at retreats. I hope I answered the question.
Rachel Elnar:See, you let the new blood in. That means you are OG. Yes. Alright. So you talked about retreats.
Rachel Elnar:Let's talk about retreats. Whoo.
Erik Cargill:How many retreats did you attend personally that you recall? And how many did you attend together?
Carlos Estrada:I
Oen Hammonds:I know I've attended six of retreats. Together maybe four, like, I'm I'm trying to like separate the national conference and the actual leadership retreats because like this the antics kinda like blend. Yeah. Together between national conference and leadership retreats. And sometimes like if I remember right like I think there was a point in time where, like, the leadership retreats overlapped or were, like, back to back with the national conference then as well.
Erik Cargill:Oh, really? I didn't realize that.
Oen Hammonds:I think at the light, I can't recall, but I think sometimes they did it just to take advantage of, like, all these people are going to be here. Why do them separately? Logistically, it just kind of like makes sense.
Carlos Estrada:I know what happened with ION Design as well. It was like one day before the conference.
Oen Hammonds:Yes. Think it
Carlos Estrada:was 2017 in Minneapolis. Minneapolis. And I only know that because I have like 50 Post its in front of me.
Erik Cargill:Yeah, mean, so let's extend the time that we punish our livers collectively.
Carlos Estrada:No comment because
Oen Hammonds:No comment.
Carlos Estrada:I'm a juke
Oen Hammonds:having that retreat. Some of those say to have never trees stay at retreats. Oh,
Carlos Estrada:I was I thought that was gonna be my line, Oen. We're not that deep in the conversation yet. Oh. Well, a
Rachel Elnar:lot of our podcast episodes and interviews have been like, I don't remember. I blacked out.
Oen Hammonds:Yeah. Yeah.
Erik Cargill:That's funny. Yeah. I don't remember I blacked out or I plead a bit. They all blend together. I don't remember which city this was in.
Carlos Estrada:And let me help you real quick because people will be watching this as it goes viral and assume I don't drink, but I completely relate. As a non drinker, the retreat will put you through and you will not remember.
Oen Hammonds:Yes.
Carlos Estrada:Because, just a quick drop. Like, there's an after party, an after party, and then the after party. And if you're up for that, there's a 6AM club.
Oen Hammonds:Right. Right. Yes.
Carlos Estrada:Along with all the pyramids.
Oen Hammonds:Right.
Carlos Estrada:Unless that one goes. And that's the first.
Oen Hammonds:After that one, yes. Yes. But like, I think for everyone to remember, those who've never been to a retreat, mostly everyone that goes to a retreat is doing some type of programming. Like so, like, you're you're mostly our attendees, but, like, the whole point of the retreat is about sharing. So, like, you're putting together something and, like, the day start at, like, 07:30, 8AM in the morning, and you go all day.
Oen Hammonds:It's like and then started all over again the next day then as well too. So, like, this is like, there's a lot of, like, fun with retreats, but there's a lot of, like, sharing and prepping and getting ready and putting that that, putting that happy face on in the morning. It's like, I'm here. Yes. Let's go.
Oen Hammonds:This is next flight. So it's not like, it's yes. There's a lot of fun at retreats. There's a lot of memories being created at retreats, but there's a lot of programming and planning and just a wealth of information that you have to turn on for to, like, take that back to your chapter, take it back to your community, and just really, you know, like move your chapter to the next level or like continue its growth then as well too. And that all comes from the retreat.
Erik Cargill:Oh, and does that content still resonate with you?
Oen Hammonds:Oh, I mean, yeah. I I will say like the unprogrammed things still resonate with me greatly today, which is networking and communicating and just meeting people. I think that's one of the things that that could be brought back, not because it's nationals or any of the individual chapters fault, but it's just we've, as as people, like, the pandemic just did a thing on
Carlos Estrada:us.
Oen Hammonds:It just did something to us. Like, we lost all types of, like, social skills. And leave it at that. All kinds of social skills we've lost, even for myself as well too. And I think that when you're going to a retreat, you cannot hide.
Oen Hammonds:Like you have to be present. And yes, there's a level of like, if you're introvert, you know, you find your tribe and you know, like you hang with them and then like eventually by the end of the retreat, like you've gone from like introvert to like, like a extrovert with your level of like comfort zone then as well too. So and that's like a unwritten thing that happens naturally at the retreat then. But yeah, program wise, there are definitely a lot of things around, you know, running a chapter. That's a business skill.
Oen Hammonds:I mean, like, that's not just a nonprofit skill set. Like that is like, if you're going off, you're running your own freelance or a contractor, you better be organized. And when you're a chapter leader, you have to be organized. So like things like that, you know, like finding people who can like be a part of your team and bringing them in and like onboarding them and doing those things, that doesn't stop at the retreat. That's something that I use when I'm forming and storming my teams and my day to day work then as well too.
Oen Hammonds:So there's a lot of just kind of like transitional things between, you know, like the retreat and the programming that it does and like how to make you a better chapter leader that you just take into your day to day work and possibly even, like, your personal life as well too.
Carlos Estrada:I'm gonna step in and amplify what Oen said. Please do. Because Please drop some gems. Because of all the friends I made through DEC, ARJ's design educators community, which I never knew existed until like two retreats in, I met all these people. I'm like, Hey, so what chapter are you part of?
Carlos Estrada:They're like, DEC. I'm like, DC? Hey, DEC. I'm like, You guys have a speech problem? Let me help you.
Carlos Estrada:Anyhow, because of that, I know a ton of educators in the Detroit area and now across the nation. And soft skills is becoming a lost art, which I never thought I'd say in my life. Networking, like Oen, I think sometimes I'm rusty. I'm the extrovert. I don't know if you can tell.
Carlos Estrada:But anyhow, there are times I'll just walk in and I'm like, Nope, not today. I'm not. I've done this, been there, done that. I'm going to meet one person and that's it. Just dropping those walls and their attitude to network and talk to people.
Carlos Estrada:There are a lot of students that are afraid of looking people in the eye or being in class.
Oen Hammonds:Yes.
Carlos Estrada:And I'm like, I'm a little shocked. I'm like, thankfully I have a skill set, like, this is what we can share with students because in real life matters. And to go on with what Oen was saying, at the retreats by the way, I'm going just sneak this in, because I don't know how the conversation is going to go The retreats to me, I don't think have been a pillar of AIGA. I think they've been a cornerstone. Like, literally.
Carlos Estrada:You can say if it's a pyramid, three cornerstones, or four, or building four or six, or however you're going to architect and design it, it's literally a cornerstone. Because not only do we connect, make longtime friendships, like literally, all of us are in different states, and I would call you friend, business acquaintance, you know what I mean? I've called Oen in the past just for advice, and he's freely given it, you know, and helped me with ideas and even with things we may not have agreed on, but I trust him. I know that he's just going to be a straight shooter and I respect his career and what he's done. So, that's like one benefit of the retreat I'm trying to think of where I was going is you talk to other chapter leaders, and it's not just programming.
Carlos Estrada:You learn ideas for events. And then also the things that you don't expect, like all the bylaws, all the administration stuff, the things that aren't the fun stuff, but are necessary. And also, like one thing Detroit and Chicago had a conversation one time, and I was blown away of the transparency, where they literally showed us the spreadsheet of one of their events, like down to the detail, the timeframe of how long it took. And what I'm really trying to get at is they showed us every financial line on the ledger. And so we saw how much it cost, we saw how much people gave, we saw how much they made.
Carlos Estrada:And I'm like, that's the kind of information that brings value so that there can be success across states. And so we can collaborate and share speakers or know how to do it better for ourselves. But yeah, so let me look for my Post it cornerstone. No, because there was notes around it. Because it's just the retreats were so valuable, and, you're I don't want to say forced, but it's the opportunity to network and practice your soft skills.
Carlos Estrada:The other thing is throughout the decade, I think I've been to about six retreats as well with Oen. I say seven because I count the one in DC, a retreat that, Benny Johnson put on. And, that was one of the ones where they kind of hybrid, I must say it was a hybrid of a conference and a retreat, because it was just after the pandemic and we had to get something done. You meet people, you learn things to better your chapter and yourself in your own career. Because I'll tell you what, when I called Oen and some other people, it wasn't for a chapter business.
Carlos Estrada:It was for personal business. Like, no one's ever taught me this, or they didn't talk about this in school. So I'm handing it over to you three so I can find my Kona Stone corset. I was in a hurry. I had to rush here to this awesome coworking space in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Carlos Estrada:Now that's where I am right now. And Oh, Grand Rapids. Nice. Yes, sir. I call myself a Midwest Designer because if I'm not in Chicago or Detroit, I'm in Grand Rapids.
Oen Hammonds:Yeah. See, I'm like, I'm I'm South. I'm on I'm down I-thirty 5 South. And, like, it's all southern desire.
Carlos Estrada:Hey. I got you. So, like, I so the okay. So I think, geographically, like what Oen's saying, I think that's the smart way to do business because right now I've just been freelancing, or maybe the regular way. But where I'm from, like in Michigan, there's so many little towns.
Carlos Estrada:Once you go out that fifteen minutes, I think you're crazy, or an anomaly. So, for what I do, some people are like, What? What? Why are you doing that? Anyhow.
Rachel Elnar:Let me ask you, you talked about the value of sharing during the retreats, and what you've learned from other chapters has helped your chapter as well. Is there anything that you've learned from the retreats that has benefited your career?
Oen Hammonds:I mean, I think one of the big things for me with chapters is just how powerful the connections are when no matter where you go. So for instance, when I moved from, and I alluded to this earlier, when I moved from Cincinnati, Ohio to Austin, Texas, I the first thing that I did was first find AIGA Austin, and then find an event. And obviously, like, one of the big things they were doing was, happy hours then as well too. Yeah. And so I walk in and I felt like they knew me better than I knew them.
Oen Hammonds:And that was because like my president, Andrea, actually contacted them and says like, hey, like Oen's coming. Get him on the board. And I was like and then when I start walking, it's like, oh, I'm on da da da from since I am I'm moving here. It's like, oh we heard about you da da. Wanna join the board?
Oen Hammonds:I was like holy
Erik Cargill:cow
Oen Hammonds:it's like I'm just trying to find a job and like into your question Rachel like there's like oh you should talk to this person here like oh like GSD and M is the place to go. Like, it's where everyone wants to work at. Oh, there's Latin works over there. So like, they gave me a wealth of local information of like, where and who I should talk to, to start my to continue my career in Austin, Texas then as well too. And I will always remember that because like that's like the, that's the power of, you know, like networking, that's the power of like community.
Oen Hammonds:Even when you are not from that community, like there's an extension of it somewhere else. I knew that like, I knew that I could like go to the AJ Austin meetups and start there. But like, it was taken to a whole nother level just by like, you know, like who the people are, found my, you know, like my next extended tribe in the Texas area then as well too. And that was like, one of the pinnacle pieces of like me continuing my design careers like that moving from Cincinnati to Austin and like just having AIGA Austin chapter just be there for me without, like, me having to, like, severely beat the bush to, like, get started here as well too.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. That makes sense.
Carlos Estrada:I was thinking about how it being on the board or in leadership pushes you to oh gosh, I'm trying to be fancy with my words, y'all. Let's talk about money, all right? That's what I'm trying to say. You move to look, work within the community to find partnerships. So, ironically, or just before I got on the board with AIGA West Michigan, I also secured a job with Herman Miller.
Carlos Estrada:And eventually, I started contracting for Herman Miller, which helped start my agency, which I shut down during the pandemic. But anyhow, what that did for me was I was hired for one department. And, what's amazing is I was working with the engineers and research team primarily, and like literally geniuses. I'm like, how am I working around so many smart people? One of the engineers was from NASA.
Carlos Estrada:And we would make jokes of how he used to build rockets, and now he builds butt cups. All right? That's what we said behind the scenes. You heard it here. So anyhow, but what was great is, because I love talking to people and I was in the building quite often, they wanted me in there.
Carlos Estrada:So I'm like, great, I'm not going to complain about that. So when I became a vendor, then they still wanted me close to them. Every time I went to go get coffee or water or I needed to walk around, I just believe in after two hours of sitting, you need to go walk or move or, you know, do something. I would talk to people. So I talked to people throughout the whole building, like, that's just who I am.
Carlos Estrada:And so I was able to connect with the brand team because I'm like, this is my tribe. Like, they understand what I'm talking about. These engineers are too analytical, they don't get it. Some of them do though, I will say I met some engineers, they're so creative. I'm like, Are you sure you should be doing this?
Carlos Estrada:And then I saw their paycheck, I'm like, Yeah, you should be doing this. But what I'm really trying to get at is, I was able to meet other people in so many different departments and buildings within the ecosystem of Herman Miller, even VPs and executives, that that's how I raise money to do things for AIGA West Michigan. Some people like, this was crazy. I don't know if it's like this anymore. But back in the day, go back ten years, they're like, oh, well, we've got 5,000 petty cash.
Carlos Estrada:You want it? I'm like, sure. But and we used that to do, like, three events and to even bring some of their people in. Like, Look, you helped make this happen. I want you to give the intro.
Carlos Estrada:I want you to speak. To keep it on retreats, they were a big part of the Grand Rapids retreat in 2015. They went into the hotel, they went into their archives and pulled like, I don't know, they took over a foyer and just filled it with Herman Miller furniture.
Oen Hammonds:I remember that.
Carlos Estrada:Right that size.
Oen Hammonds:That was awesome.
Carlos Estrada:So, I mean, like just making those connections and collaborations for what we were doing for just, you know, the local nonprofit chapter, amazing. And to keep it on Grand Rapids' twenty fifteen retreat, not only was Herman Miller a part of it, but so was Steve Frickholm, who's been a medalist and a two time fellow for Detroit and West Michigan. This was before ARJ, but especially with ARJ, because he had such an endearment for anyone doing that. He he was a mentor already, I've met him before, but then he became a person really involved in my life. And introduced me to things like, you know, you're grown, you're past your 30s, I know everything.
Carlos Estrada:He's like, Come hang out with me Friday. I'm like, Yes, sir. And I thought he was going to show me these design magazines. I'm like, I got an extra ticket. We're going to the ballet.
Carlos Estrada:What? And just showing me, you know, culture within the city and other things. And I'll tell you what, because of him, I love the ballet. People that dance are athletes. I mean, they make everything look so easy.
Carlos Estrada:Everything. And it's just beautiful. But what I'm trying to say about the retreats is you get to connect with the leaders inside and outside of design and those that will give to community events. And before I forget, I want to give a shout out and flowers to Kate Hunt, who is now Kate Hunt Robertson, because if it wasn't for her, she led the process, like the year before, to get the retreat in Grand Rapids. There were other leaders involved in the board, but I know that she was a spearhead.
Carlos Estrada:And her term was up right before the retreat happened. So she never got to experience what she created. And I'm like, that was phenomenal. Like, that's one thing that blew my mind. So, just want if you guys ever look up Kate Hunt Robinson on LinkedIn, that woman is a powerhouse.
Carlos Estrada:And what we enjoyed in 2015, she spearheaded it. You know, it takes the whole board, know, a ton of volunteers to get anything done. But she was the one that rocked that boat. So want to thank her for that.
Oen Hammonds:Yes. Cindy Guide. Yes. Hello.
Carlos Estrada:Mr. Kearman, quick. I
Oen Hammonds:wanted to build on what you just said. You have to be what I call at when I work in corporate, the sidle buster. Like, you just cannot stay within your bubble. Like, that's one of the things I learned from from being a chapter leader and also the retreats as well too is, like, if you know that someone has information to help you progress forward, you need to go get. It's like Yes.
Oen Hammonds:Like, you you've got to, like, go ask the questions. Like, you got to, like, you got, like, take that. Like, I'm an introvert, but, like, if I need something to get done or if my team needs something, I'm gonna get the answer. And if there's something in their way, I'll be that roadblock so that they don't get distracted by, like, things happening around them that they don't need to be dealing with them as well too. But that is definitely one of the things that from the leadership retreat and being a chapter leader that you have to do is, you have to break down silos.
Oen Hammonds:You have to align to your point around like fundraising. Like, you have to like be that person that's like go out and ask for funding, ask for money. These, this is a nonprofit. There's you don't have a many chapters to have like a good account, financial account, many chapters don't. It's like, and so you you have to be like that person to go out and like, be like, alright, I'm gonna put on my best outfit and like go ask for some money then like, and that takes courage, resourcefulness, and the willingness to, like, be that silo buster and go ask this adjacent association or this adjacent business that benefits from design to like, hey, like, this is what we can do for your designers at your company, the the like, we're asking for this amount of money.
Oen Hammonds:Will you be willing to give? That that takes tenacity and and being that silo buster to go out and do that then as well, too. I
Carlos Estrada:love what he's saying because everything you said on makes me think of confidence. It helps you build your confidence and even break how do you I'm thinking about I know when I started asking for money, was a bit naive. But it challenged me. And then you get out of that. You're going to be naive until you start doing it and practice it.
Carlos Estrada:So what I like is being on boards and in leadership or breaking silos. We're making it sound easy. There's a challenge to it. You got your lovers and your haters in the corporate world and on your board. Okay?
Carlos Estrada:And like, I was given the challenge because I knew where I was working, they said, Well, we need this from you next week. Thankfully, with my confidence and being so naive, I'm like, Okay. Because I'm like, well, if this is what they're asking, this is what happens all the time. It doesn't. But I did it.
Carlos Estrada:I came back the next week. I'm like, okay, what's next? They're like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, you said to get this money, here it is. Let's let's go.
Carlos Estrada:Let's do this. Oh, and we got to do this more often. Yeah. I was gonna say, preach, brother. Let's tag team somewhere.
Carlos Estrada:Yeah. But it builds your confidence and it just shows you how to get things done. And it's always different. It just doesn't stay the same. And like even now, it's challenging, like after the pandemic and with other things going on in our country, people are taking money back.
Carlos Estrada:And this has happened in the last two, three years. I've been shocked. Through all the years of being an AIGA, people are literally giving and then saying, No, we're taking it back. Interesting. But, you know, it's new times, a new challenge, but that doesn't mean you can't overcome and you can't get through it.
Rachel Elnar:When you're asking for money, Carlos, I have to say, like, you're not asking money for yourself. I think a lot for me, the confidence comes from being part of something greater. Right? We're not only asking money for donation, but we're also giving them a community. We're giving them a platform more than a transaction.
Rachel Elnar:It's more of an engagement. So I always felt very comfortable saying, I'm with AIGA. AIGA Los Angeles, like, right away, they're like, Oh, okay. Because that was like the foot in the door. It's not like, Hi, I'm Rachel.
Rachel Elnar:I'm asking for money. It was like, I'm with AIGA Los Angeles. And that gave me the confidence to make that ask.
Carlos Estrada:Want to say you're giving them an invitation. And what I mean by that is, because you said community, I'm just on this kick right now because of our last client, something that they had to do. It was political. Their opponent was saying, I build community. I'm like, No, community builds itself.
Carlos Estrada:And we are building something. I'm going to invite you to be a part of what we are doing. It's not like, join my network or my subscription list. It's like, no, be a part of what I'm already doing with these people. Okay.
Carlos Estrada:I'm done. That's my my job.
Erik Cargill:I love it.
Carlos Estrada:That's what you get from an OG. Eric and Rachel, I'm always gonna remind you for that. They said I was an OG. They're the authorities, so it is what And it
Erik Cargill:and you guys are dropping some gems. I wish I had known you back then and and talked to you back then because I was partnership director for Seattle. And, oh, man, it was a learning experience. I made possibly every mistake you could possibly make. Learned as I went, and Rachel, you put it put it succinctly.
Erik Cargill:It was it was it was much easier standing behind the organization or maybe standing in front of the organization for the organization, than it was to ask for money for myself. And so and and so that that community piece really was uplifting.
Carlos Estrada:Well, Eric, you know us now, so we can all stay in touch.
Erik Cargill:We could all stay in touch. I love it.
Rachel Elnar:I love it. Yeah. And Eric is starting back helping AIGA Seattle get on its feet. Like, it closed for a while. Finally Terry Marks helped stand that up.
Rachel Elnar:Wendy and Gage and Eric. Yeah.
Erik Cargill:Yeah. And and we've had four pretty successful events, in the last six months. It's been spectacular being a part of it again. And and and, you know, much like you said, Carlos, it is interesting reaching out to old con contacts regarding sponsorship partnership. They're a lot more reluctant now, you know, and for whatever reason, community is divided.
Erik Cargill:There's a lot of other communities that maybe pledging toward.
Oen Hammonds:I would say there's also a reeducation of the value of design that we have to present to community leaders, business leaders. Yes. I've literally witnessed that in my time at IBM, where when we started design, we had to fight to like, literally have really strong leaders and position them in different parts of the company to help them understand, this is what design does. This is the value you bring. And you can expand that to like a community because IBM is like global corporation.
Oen Hammonds:Like we're this conversation is not just happening in Austin. It's not just happening in New York. It's happening in Italy, Germany, like name country where I be in this. It's like we're literally having that exact same conversation over and over and over again. And we got to that peak where people are like, I need designers on my team.
Oen Hammonds:I will fund them. And then it kind of like died off or, you know, like sunset or like transitions or changes happen. And it kind of like went away then. And so that value understanding went away. That want of like having designers on the team went away for one reason or another then as well too.
Oen Hammonds:And I think now we're back to almost square one where we're having to like have that discussion with business leaders of like whether you're going for money or like you're trying to encourage, know, like as president here, like a lot one of the things I used to do was actually go to companies to talk about what design teams do and what you're probably not tapping into to your designers as well, too, to bring value to your company, x company, y company then as well too. Particularly for in house departments where design kinda like sits underneath marketing and gets kinda like buried and like, hey, like, you're not really using your designers at their maximum value. This is what, not trying to like overwork designers, but like I'm trying to like, this is how you can like think about your designers when you're thinking about your next project then as well too. And so like long story short, it's like that conversation almost needs to be brought back into, like when we're asking for funding for a community of debt or like funding to like help operationalize the chapters themselves. You just can't like talk about like, well, we need this money to do X.
Oen Hammonds:It was like, let me educate you on like what we bring and how we can help your designers like or educate you as a non designer and how to have better relationships with your designers who are maybe your contractors or freelancers then. Like, it's almost like a give and take. I'm not just asking for money, but like, I'm also going to provide a service to you to like help you educate, consult, or something like that then, not on a work based level, but I'm going to consult to you of where design brings value. And here are tons of examples out there that help you better have better design teams within your company, whether they sit in marketing or they sit alone, or if you're an agency that just has designers and you're just running them through the typical cycle of work, then you're probably not really tapping into them to their fullest value then as well, too. And I think so that it's kind of like an exchange of, yes, we're asking for money, but I'm also going to help you better understand the power of design then.
Carlos Estrada:Oen, right on the screen, you're right here. Where am I for you?
Oen Hammonds:Right here.
Carlos Estrada:Boom, tech team. Now I'm going to get you. Okay, what he said, people have died, people have retired, leaving since I've been done with Herman Miller, there's a new CEO. I want to say 90% because of the pandemic of people I work with aren't there anymore. Like things change, things turn over, people term out.
Carlos Estrada:So I love what he said. You just got to start fresh, go over it again, reeducate. Oh, that reminds me of blowing hill. Reeducate, not miseducate. I'm sorry.
Carlos Estrada:When you got a rhythm in you, just let it go. Wow, I didn't think I'd go there. Anyhow, I want to make sure I say two things. With what he was saying, and when we're talking about raising money, the other thing that came from retreats is you learned how your colleagues or who your colleagues were across the state. You got to see how design trends were going in different regions of the country.
Carlos Estrada:And even with other designers who had international accounts, like you saw how things connected, what appealed to people, or how you message differently and translate things, or how things don't translate. That's something that I learned from a retreat. And also, when you're secure with yourself, you don't say, Oh, my design is bad. You see just how things are different in regions, so you're seeing trends. That's one thing I saw.
Carlos Estrada:And with that, you see how your friends present, which makes you a better presenter. Because one thing that the retreats afforded me was to speak on the national level and the regional level. Like, I was I had the opportunity more than once to speak on the platform, side stages and main stage through the retreats, And that was something I never expected. I was just on the local board to get things done. Next thing you know, I'm talking to people, you know, when we were like 70 chapters strong, I'm like, Whaaat?
Carlos Estrada:All right, you're gonna get the full effect. Whether it's good or bad, this is where I'm at, so this is what you get. And so with that, I want to make sure that I said, because I did say that retreats were the cornerstone that gave the association some stability, that is where you saw the value of membership in the people. And it was like an incentive. That three or four day weekend literally gave you the fuel and energy and the connections to go all year long.
Rachel Elnar:100%.
Carlos Estrada:And so like just plow through whatever you had to plow through in your region. And then you had people to talk to like, Oh my gosh, this was great. Oh my gosh, this wasn't great. And from that, my first retreat was in Denver. And that is where the DNI Task Force was birthed.
Carlos Estrada:I was trying to think we had a roundtable, there was like a motivational speaker in the auditorium. And honestly, I'm like, I think I've heard of it before. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. I just wasn't feeling it. This is still going to sound old because all the terms have changed like twice over, but it wasn't vibing with me.
Carlos Estrada:Anyway, there was a group of us sitting down, we made our own little look with all the couches in the lounge or whatever, a circle. It was Aiden O'Connor, someone who used to be on staff who was amazing. It was Antoinette Carroll, Charlene King, I think Diane Hulton, and then there was like five or six other people. They were near me, that's why I remember them. We were just talking, because at that retreat, AIGA leadership was predominantly white and male.
Carlos Estrada:And we were sticking out like sore thrones in Denver. I'm like, I I didn't have this. Like, I love being a part of this. This is going really good. But this America and this industry is more than what we're seeing here.
Carlos Estrada:If we're the leaders and the professional association, the professional association needs to look different. And I will say, now we do look different. The Diversity Task Force was birthed from that year. We were going to do our own thing, or our own chapter. And Aidan said, No, you know what?
Carlos Estrada:We can do this within AIG. So we did. In the pandemic twenty nineteen retreat in Atlanta, that's where Unidos was birthed. I was part of the leadership, but I stayed behind the scenes on purpose. And the task force, which was DEI by then, we stayed, we were major supporters of them, but stayed behind the scenes.
Carlos Estrada:Because with everything going on in 2020, we're like, you know what? We just want to give our strength to supporting what's working right now. And that's what we did. Unidos had me on early, to just advise, and I was at a lot of their meetings, but I'm like, I already have a face doing something within the association. You take that spot because this is your dream.
Carlos Estrada:And then they were active, I want to say for two and a half years, maybe three. And now like that too, that if someone wants to take up that mantle, like that's ready for the new blood in the new generation. So, like, a lot of the special interest groups got strength, found the people that wanted to be involved, participants and leaders from the retreats. That's literally where they were birthed. Because everyone came together, they found what are the challenges we're facing?
Carlos Estrada:How do we solve them? Let's do this. And they did it. I can talk about retreats all day. Like, we haven't even talked about the after parties.
Carlos Estrada:And I know it sounds crazy, but even in that, like, I'll tell you, like, we mentioned when we talked before that this is gonna sound very biased because I'm from West Michigan and in Michigan and part of Detroit. But the dance party we had at the Grand Rapids retreat in 2015, I will never forget. Think everyone, we danced to like, it was an eighties retro dance night, and I knew they threw in some nineties. Alright? But I think we danced three, four hours straight.
Carlos Estrada:Street. And it was so much fun, and nobody was, you know, acting crazy or there were no fights. We just were adults having fun. And I'll tell you what, I woke up the next morning sore. I was so confused.
Carlos Estrada:I'm like, all we did was dance. I could barely move. And I have to mention, it was an excuse and a reason to travel, and most chapters sent their people and paid for it. Do you know how good that feels when someone appreciates you and says, We're going to take care of your hotel and your airfare. Go do this and then bring something back for us.
Carlos Estrada:Like that's an incentive. And I'm going to be too honest. When I became president, I looked for people on my board that there was one person in particular, I'm not going to name names, but I could see them starting to burn out. And this was after the pandemic. I'm like, you know what?
Carlos Estrada:I have this power and this platform and this authority now. You are coming with me to this trip to DC. And I'm like, and this and I'm gonna be really honest because of I can see what's happening with you right now in your in your career, and this is this is what you asked for, and this is what you're gonna get. And, you can blame me for calling favorites. Do whatever you want.
Carlos Estrada:It's already done. Because in leadership positions, you can help empower and bring refreshment to your community.
Rachel Elnar:100%.
Erik Cargill:Well put. I
Rachel Elnar:want to ask if we can squeeze this in. Just one memory of an after after party that still resonates with you. Just one. We talked a lot about programming. Let's talk about after programming.
Oen Hammonds:The Grand Rapids one just really stuck with me. And just even getting there, I'm originally from Kentucky, so I was raised in a blue collar family. Gray Rapids was blue collar like it was like, oh, I am whole like we went bowling that was awesome. We like the dance party. I woke up the next day.
Oen Hammonds:Was like, why do I hurt? I was like, was like, oh my gosh, like I love 80s music and then I was born in the 80s and like 70s actually, but it was like it was, like, nonstop. And, like, I would say, like, that one was probably the most memorable because and then, like and that wasn't even the last night, the dance party. Like, the next night was the last night, and that's when we were in the lobby of the hotel. And we built something so high that the staff actually stopped us.
Oen Hammonds:They're clutching because we actually reached the balcony with the pyramid. Oh, really? Yeah, it was that high. Like, so that's where that or me, like, that was the tallest pyramid I have ever seen.
Erik Cargill:Duh. Do you remember how many tiers it was?
Oen Hammonds:I no. But the balcony was at least, like, 12 to 13 feet high.
Carlos Estrada:I'm going say higher. That's Higher, probably. That's old architecture.
Oen Hammonds:Yeah. Yeah. So like maybe 15 plus. Like, so whenever, like, people on hands and knees stacked up to there, That's how that's how deep it was. Wow.
Oen Hammonds:Wow. And no one that was a night. No one was asleep like because everyone's catching a flight first thing in the morning. So yeah, that was. That was it.
Carlos Estrada:I think Grand Rapids was the first time I did the 6AM club. And I'm like, We are acting like teenagers. There's like 30 adults, and the end both are real. All trying to find something to do and talk about just so we could be a part of the 6AM club. No sleep till 6AM.
Carlos Estrada:Insanity, but so much fun. Oh, wait, wait, that was the last night. So people were leaving because they had to catch a flight. Right.
Oen Hammonds:Yeah.
Carlos Estrada:Now, Raleigh, I saw people dancing on tables. It is what it is because it happened. It was I think that was, like, the second after party. Because, you know, you had the sponsored corporate one. We're in a beautiful gallery or museum, and there's the DJ and food.
Carlos Estrada:Yummy.
Oen Hammonds:Yeah, the official one.
Carlos Estrada:And then the unofficial, after you had more food, like, all right. Baltimore was important to me because that's when I was a part of the new Detroit chapter. And so it was a time of team building. And we got an exclusive VIP room at some Peruvian restaurant because our president was a foodie. So she researched all the food places in Baltimore.
Carlos Estrada:She goes, this is where we're going. Like she had that planned out. And I'm so thankful for that because we had like exquisite meals, like I never dreamed of. And, like, who goes to Baltimore for Peruvian food in a VPI room? And then we had extra seats, and we saw some smaller chapters that didn't have any plans, like, come on.
Carlos Estrada:Like, at the retreat, the mentality is you can just quickly say, no. You're with us. Let's go. You know? And and people are going, and it was so great for all of us.
Carlos Estrada:So just that time of dinner and eating with people, the conference center hotel was across the street or five minutes from like this huge mall. I also went shopping. I'm like, yeah, I can do this. Baltimore's good. I got me some shoes.
Carlos Estrada:Yeah.
Rachel Elnar:Thank you so much for inviting us to your guys' table.
Erik Cargill:Thank you, guys.
Rachel Elnar:I will say, yes, you are the OG, like, community builders, the ones who are also cornerstones in our in the community that I know of. So thank you again for being on the podcast. Yeah. Appreciate that.
Oen Hammonds:Thank you for the invitation and open invitation. Please, if you're a chapter leader of any sort, I'm happy to, like, do a one on one and and chat if you want a life, you know, life work on life building up your chapter and community. I know AIGA is struggling a bit and the chapters are struggling, but you know, it takes a community to to make this all happen.
Carlos Estrada:Oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, I'm I'm open if anyone wants to reach out to me as well. I I'm gonna set up for 2026 the Oen and Carlos dynamic duo speech in speech tour.
Oen Hammonds:Yeah. Perfect. Come
Erik Cargill:to Seattle.
Carlos Estrada:Hey. I would love to.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. Cheers and cheers. We'll be back next time with more design leadership tales retold.
Erik Cargill:Please subscribe, rate, review, and share this podcast with your creative community, design leaders, and friends.
Rachel Elnar:Cheers and Tiers Design Leadership Tales Retold is a production of chapter two and hosted by us, Rachel Elner and Eric Cargill. This episode was produced and edited by Rachel Elnor. Podcast graphics by Eric Cargill. Animation by Verso Design and Megato Design.
Erik Cargill:The theme music track is Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans. Follow Cheers and Tiers on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube podcasts, or wherever you get your audio and video podcasts. Subscribe to our email list at cheers and tiers dot com so you don't miss an episode.