Chapter two.
Erik Cargill:I'm Erik Cargill.
Rachel Elnar:And I'm Rachel Elnar. And this is Cheers and Tiers.
Erik Cargill:Design leadership tales retold.
Rachel Elnar:Hey, Eric. Our first guest leads design practice for a major tech corporation's chief data office. This visionary oversees teams focus on AI first data transformation. Previously, he founded an award winning consultancy for chronic disease product experiences. He serves as faculty at Parsons School of Design and Art Center College of Design, and is a former AIGA Chapter President.
Rachel Elnar:Welcome, Seth Johnson, Design Director at IBM.
Seth Johnson:Hey, Rachel. Hi, Erik.
Rachel Elnar:Our second guest drives enterprise strategy, design ops, and business transformation. After serving as design leader for IBM's business process transformation team, she recently joined General Motors to transform their digital enterprise operations. At IBM, she built a 450 plus member design ops community, published IBM's first design ops playbook, and established design ops as an officially recognized role. Like Seth, she has held multiple leadership positions within AIGA. Welcome global design lead producer for Craft and Interface at General Motors, Jenny Price.
Jenny Price:Welcome. Thank you. So happy to be here.
Rachel Elnar:Welcome to both of you.
Erik Cargill:And Jenny, congratulations the new position.
Jenny Price:Yes. Thank you. That's fantastic.
Seth Johnson:Happy for you.
Jenny Price:I'm so excited. Yes. Thank you so much.
Rachel Elnar:Let's talk a little bit about AIGA Leadership. I'm sure you guys remember. Seth and Jenny, maybe tell us a little bit about your the years, the chapters, the roles. How did you get into leadership?
Jenny Price:Good question. Again, thanks for having me. Super happy to be here with Seth as our dynamic duo session. So really honored to be a part of this series. So thank you.
Jenny Price:All right. I had the opportunity to start my college student group served as co president during my undergrad program. After grad school, I then moved to Minneapolis. I began to research local design leaders, and Doug Pell's name popped up as part of my search. I was very new to that city, wanted to get involved locally with the design community and meet fabulous people and designers within the community.
Jenny Price:So I I cold emailed Doug Powell, 2009 ish, I believe, and asked if he'd meet me for coffee, and he said yes. So, you know, as part of that conversation, he encouraged me to get involved with the local AIGA Minnesota chapter. And it was really just as simple as that. I started attending local events. I believe one of the first ones I attended was with Debbie Millman, James Victoria.
Jenny Price:And
Seth Johnson:I remember that event. Yeah. It was at the W Hotel.
Jenny Price:Yes. Yes. And I Yeah. Seth, I don't think we even had met yet then.
Seth Johnson:No. I don't think we had.
Jenny Price:Quite yet. But I was But funny that
Seth Johnson:we were both there.
Jenny Price:Yes. Yes. I remember them sitting on two chairs elevated up. He was Mhmm. Kind of promoting one of his books at the time.
Jenny Price:Yeah. And and and then in addition to that, I was starting to attend pivot and GAIN numerous national conferences. And then this is sort of the the life changing moment that I know, Seth, you can speak to too is back in 02/2010. I attended the GAIN conference at the Times Square Sheridan in New York City, and I was invited to a Midwest meetup for a meet and greet with other Midwest attendees. And at that very dinner is where Doug introduced me to Seth, and the rest was really history in terms of in terms of my relationship and getting to know Seth and and building that foundational moment from there was really was really remarkable for me.
Jenny Price:And I know Seth, you can tell a bit more about that story too, but I don't know if you want me to keep going or is this where we are opening conference?
Seth Johnson:What was Rachel and Erik want?
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. So let's also maybe if we can hear a little bit about also your roles within leadership?
Erik Cargill:Oh, yeah.
Jenny Price:Okay. Okay. Then we'll move on.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah.
Jenny Price:Alright. So shortly after that moment, I began to peruse the AIG Minnesota site to see what open board positions were were posted at the time. And I was teaching at the college level design, and so there was a co director of education position, which caught my eye. I really looked at that description and thought, wow, okay, I I think I can do this. Let me put my hat into the ring.
Jenny Price:Let me really was very, you know, you know, just sort of getting a lay of the land in terms of being new to town and all of that. And just, you know, the fact that I didn't really know anybody at the time. So I I basically, you know, kind of leaned into that and interviewed for that particular position. I was then voted in to serve in that role on the board. At the same time, I then attended my first leadership retreat, which was happening to be in Minneapolis at that time.
Jenny Price:So my very first board position, very new to the board, taking it all in within the retreat in that moment. We can talk about stories as well on that front. But certainly another pivotal memory and set of moments that I have with with regards to that experience. From there, I served as, again, there is a lot of time that passed, obviously, you know, work that happened along the way, but served as vice president in working with Jenny Schmidt Hinshaw. We bonded at that first retreat and that also is a whole another set of stories, but amazing talented design leader, listener, advocate for the chapter.
Jenny Price:So her and I partnered up, did a number of things during that two year term. From there, I served as chapter president in working with Katrina Loss as vice president. Again, another set of an amazing experiences that I'm happy
Seth Johnson:to talk
Jenny Price:about more in terms of what we undertook our relationship and partnership with IBM and EDT and upskilling the practice of design thinking at that time, submitting for innovation grants and then co founding the Emerge program at the national level, all kind of done during that set of term with the board collectively and a mass amount of volunteers. From there, I served as president's council chair and had the opportunity to co host develop work with national staff, many people including Nick Prestaleo, Lauren Schultz, Corey Strausman brought in and worked with Gage Mitchell as co chair of both the Dallas and the Baltimore retreats. And I can pause there, but I get a really beautiful Where do I stop?
Erik Cargill:Yeah, no, it's just incredible how
Rachel Elnar:all
Erik Cargill:of that is just integrated. So much work. I love it, I love
Rachel Elnar:Alright. So, Seth, how did you get into AIGA leadership?
Seth Johnson:It's a surprisingly similar story to to to Jenny's. I but maybe offset by a few years. I I had it was sort of newish to living in Minneapolis after having been in Los Angeles for a few years and working at a small design firm in Minneapolis, Woychik Design, founded by Dan Woychik. And Dan had an office mate in South Minneapolis, and his office mate was Doug Powell. They had been old friends, having served on the the chapter board, you know, ten, fifteen years prior.
Seth Johnson:And so I just sort of got to know this other guy that was, you know, in our in our office every day. And I was talking to both of them, you know, sort of on whatever, on a Tuesday afternoon and saying, gosh, I'd like to get a little more involved, you know, here in in this in this place. And they both immediately recommended two organizations I should get involved in. One called Art Buddies, founded by an AIGA fellow, Sue Crowlick, a dear friend of mine. And the other, they said, you should just start volunteering for AIGA.
Seth Johnson:And I am happy to say that I took their advice and started off and running. You know, tale as old as time with this, I started volunteering. I started serving on a committee. I then was asked and had an opportunity to be a co chair of the committee with Colleen Pittner, another AIGA fellow, dear friend of mine, co director of education. You can see the similarities here, Jenny.
Seth Johnson:Was co director of education for a while. I was then had the opportunity to to win the confidence of of our of our board and our chapter and was privileged to serve as our chapter president for two years. Served on the chapter advisory council for several years after that. I think I was our I think I was the AIGA of Minnesota treasurer for a stint. I had my own business, and so I knew a thing or two about bookkeeping.
Seth Johnson:So I did that for a while. And, you know, really, like many other folks that we know, dear friends, I owe so much of my career and beyond to this to this organization and the the people that I've been fortunate enough to to meet and learn from. And from the opportunities and the skills that I've been able to to take away from from the community.
Rachel Elnar:That's amazing. I might do an edit with you side by side, and you guys both start with Doug Powell, and then it just kind of goes
Erik Cargill:All roads lead
Seth Johnson:to or from or through Doug Powell.
Rachel Elnar:That's quite amazing. I didn't know he was such a connector. And, of course, you interfaced with him after that. So tell me about your leadership together. How did you work together?
Seth Johnson:We we met just about six blocks from where I'm sitting at at at at the GAME conference in in 2010. Doug introduced us, and I I remember that night very vividly in my mind. I remember not only meeting Jenny and feeling just sort of an immediate connection. You know, there there are a few people, I think, that we have in our lives where you can remember the moment you met them and remember feeling at least I feel this way. I'm going to be really good friends with this person.
Seth Johnson:I remember that. And then I remember later that evening talking briefly with Doug. I was the chapter president at the time. And I remember Doug saying to me, keep your eye on that Jenny Price. She's going to be a good person to know, and she's going to be she's going to do really good things for our for our design community.
Seth Johnson:And from that moment on, you know, the he was right. Jenny and I, you know, worked with each other so closely on so many things on the board, me handing off Colleen and I handing off the education committee to you, then you serving as vice president after I was done being president. We, you know, just sort of went together like hand in glove and still and still do.
Erik Cargill:Still do. You yeah. You guys have worked together outside of AIGA for a number of years as well. Correct?
Jenny Price:Yes. Yes. And I just wanna say, yeah, it's it's been a remarkable set of, I don't wanna say patterns, but I feel like, you know, just the up you know, the alignment of the stars to bring to bring us together in this in this way over, you know, nearly fifteen years of our lives has been remarkable. And, you know, just how the opportunities to continue to learn from, you know, just how well organized Seth you are how and you really set up others for success leave, you know, you do things better when you found them. And I think that that's one trait that I certainly know very well, just even from the various roles and the way that you set forth and nurtured our chapter in terms of AIGA Minnesota.
Jenny Price:And then even, yeah, the opportunity, at the moment in time where I was looking to do a career pivot, was reaching out to fellow people in my inner circle to say, I'm looking for opportunities. If there's something that comes across your desk that may be a good fit, please consider me. And so Seth, you know, kind of knocked on my door to say, Jenny, there might be these a couple opportunities that I think you should check out. And that kind of led me to a lot of conversationsinterviews in terms of making my way to joining IBM and really starting this new role and practice of design ops at the company, which was certainly a daunting task and it's something that I've always been drawn to. I think that that's part of the trajectory of my career, my own patterns that I've noticed in terms of taking things on that are certainly much larger than myself and is gonna take a group to collectively make something possible.
Jenny Price:I feel like that's been something I've learned tremendously and seen time and time again through my AIGA experiences and the number of people that I've worked with across the chapters within our own chapter and at the national level and well beyond. Just seeing that time and time again has been just fascinating and most, I think, memorable as well as impacting in terms of continuing to want to push forward to see and navigate how we can continue to do really good work and also, you know, build that culture and community, whatever that culture and community be. And there's always room for improvement. And I recognize that and growth opportunities. And I think that's where like those moments and those challenges have been something that have stuck with me that I try to carry forward in my personal and professional life.
Jenny Price:Hopefully I answered your question there. Absolutely
Erik Cargill:I you
Jenny Price:kind of just went off a tangent a little bit.
Seth Johnson:No, no,
Jenny Price:it's great.
Erik Cargill:It's great. Please feel free to just, you know, lay it all out there.
Jenny Price:Yeah. One other quick moment that brings Doug Powell back again into the fold is like, so I was brought into this new role and team, you know, the team existed obviously within IBM CHQ. And I remember Doug Powell after I was maybe a couple months into the position. He's he was
Seth Johnson:And Doug was at IBM at the time.
Jenny Price:At the time. Yeah. Yeah. So he was a VP of the design program office at the time. And he approached me saying, Jenny, would you be interested to help spearhead and develop the design ops community at IBM?
Jenny Price:I said and he said, Jenny, it's it's pretty much as, you know, as though the the all of all of the work that you've done at at AIGA and all of the programs that you've led and and how you brought people together. He's like, it's essentially the same thing. Cause I was like, woah, I'm new to IBM. I am not certain what you're asking me here. But I said, yes.
Jenny Price:I did say yes. It's like, yes, I'll do it. I will do it. And we started with a small but mighty team of about five people. I really didn't know any They were not directly on my team, but I sought out people who were practicing some form of design ops and began to grow that community from a very small number, not knowing what exactly we were signing up for and very similar patterns, I think, to what we've done and accomplished over all of the multitude of programs and inner workings of AIGA.
Jenny Price:And so it was a similar set of practices, I think, that I that kinda came naturally. And Doug saw that in terms of asking me to step into that and to do it and kind of ultimately see that this is a legacy thing that's gonna live on well well beyond my time at IBM, and I'm just a small portion of IBM's history in general, given it's a 100 plus year old company similar to AIGA, 100 plus year old organization. So like having those moments and to be able to see the change that can be made, whether it is in a volunteer front, us working countless hours at nights, weekends, beyond our day jobs. It's a similar pattern, I would say, with regards to the ask for the IBM DesignOps community, because it was also volunteers above and beyond our day jobs. And so I was interfacing with people across all lines of business, across all aspects of the company, to really help to define and articulate the point of view of what DesignOps is, and why it matters at IBM.
Jenny Price:And we did that in so many cool ways. And I am so it was like, certainly a career highlight in terms of the knowledge and expertise that I gained from AIGA. And then to be able to apply that into another area of my life and professional experience as well is is like magical. Wow. That's a lot.
Erik Cargill:I can't specifically remember when this was, but there was a design ops thing that I, it was online that I was a part of that you were on. I don't know if you remember this, but you chimed in and said hello, and I was just like, oh, this is great. And so, I mean, that meant a lot to me because, you know, DesignOps was so new and I was new to it and what you brought to it was invaluable. And so I just want to thank you for that.
Jenny Price:Thank you.
Rachel Elnar:Okay. So Doug Powell, he connected you too. He's a soothsayer. He obviously knows the future. He also brought you back together at IBM.
Rachel Elnar:Seth, can you talk a little bit about your leadership role at IBM?
Seth Johnson:Yeah. I've I've been at IBM for about eleven years now and gone through quite a bit of change in the company, but also my own career during that time. I started at IBM relatively early on in IBM's now somewhat storied design transformation about probably about a year after IBM began reinvesting in in design at at quite quite a serious commitment. And my my first several years at IBM were really focused around getting nondesigners to collaborate with, to accept onto their teams, and to see the value in having designers as part of their existent organizations. And that was fascinating for me.
Seth Johnson:It was something that I had I could have never predicted that I was gonna be a part of that. And AIGA, unwillingly to unknowingly, unwillingly, to me, really, similar to Jenny, you know, really set me up to be able to do that work. A few things in particular that I think that that reflecting back on my AIGA service that I've that that were it not for AIGA, I don't think I would have been able to be here. The first is that AIGA taught me how to make things that scale. You know, it's not about simply doing one event one time and then you pack it up and you're done.
Seth Johnson:It's about, oh, how can we do this repeatedly? We did one event. Maybe we'll do another one. Let's make a few tweaks. Let's learn from it.
Seth Johnson:Let's do it again and again and again. And so much of what AIGA leadership retreats were about, at least for me, were about learning from other chapters how they are doing things and then applying those new practices to what we're doing or teaching what we're doing to other chapters, and that's another way to scale your impact. So this thing that maybe we started in the Minnesota chapter is now being done, you know, a year or two, three years later by dozens of other chapters in similar forms or or fashion. And that's really important when you start working in a large organization, that you have to operate at a level of scale. And I learned how to do that primarily through my AIGA service.
Seth Johnson:The other thing that AIGA taught me that was integral to me being at all successful at a company like IBM is to understand how organizations actually work and function and how organizations sustain themselves and how organizations, good organizations at least, iterate upon themselves in order to sustain themselves. You know, Jenny mentioned a few minutes ago, AIGA and IBM share a few things that make them similar. One of them is that they're both really old organizations. They've been around for a long time. Well, typically, organizations that have been around for a really long time have reinvented themselves several times along the way.
Seth Johnson:You know, IBM doesn't make cheese slicers or punch cards anymore. We now do hybrid cloud and AI. And so understanding how organizations actually respond to the moment and change and morph is something that I learned as an AIGA chapter president primarily to build something that actually endures beyond oneself or something that exists sustainably once you are no longer there is something that's absolutely needed when you're talking about large organizations. And it's something that my AIGA service set me up really well to know how to do when I was tasked with helping bring design designers and design thinking sustainably globally to mostly software product teams that had products in market and had been going along, in some cases, for decades without designers. And now a new element is being introduced into the mix.
Rachel Elnar:That's quite interesting that both IBM and AIGA have been around for the for the longest time. And you've also had the same learnings, the same lessons from both.
Seth Johnson:Yeah. I mean, I Jenny, I'd love to hear your point of view on this, but I I absolutely think that my work with AIGA was essential to me being effective at IBM. I I first of all, I don't think I would have gotten a job at IBM were it not for AIGA and the connections that that I was able to exploit because of that and the opportunities that were able to present themselves. But and I even remember interviewing for IBM and talking about and showing evidence of my ability to make things that scale and my ability to inspire others into service, I had evidence that I could do that because of AIBA. But as I said earlier, once I got there and I was confronted with these really big in intimidating problems, you know, oh, go figure out how to, you know, introduce these 30 new designers to this 800 person software product team that has never worked with designers before.
Seth Johnson:Okay. I found myself time and time and time again thinking, well, this isn't actually so dissimilar than something that we maybe had to do with AIG yet.
Jenny Price:I agree. I think that's it's very, very true. I would say even the position that I came into was my head of design at the time said, Jenny, you needed to define your role. You needed to define what's important. You need to understand.
Jenny Price:So I had to begin to I did a lot of interviewing of everybody across the team, people that our team was collaborating with to really get an understanding of what the as is state is and where they want to take it. And it was very similar patterns, I think, in terms of understanding what our design community needs, whether it's at a local level or a national level, it was very much me going in to investigate and understand what the needs are of the team that I'm joining, the organization, the business that I'm working with, and how I can then really make an impact collectively in working with the people that I was partnering with and needing to collaborate with to make change in the the new team that I was a part of. So I was using some of that experience or expertise that I had gained from, you know, having to build and construct things again at scale and figuring how to make it sustainable and or be able to maintain it. And then also to show the impact and the value that we're bringing to the to whomever that might be.
Rachel Elnar:Wondering, are you good for another fifteen minutes? Because we need to still dive into the leadership retreat.
Seth Johnson:We can go for as long as we we need to. There's so much stuff that we haven't gotten to that I'd love to get to. I know. I know. Yeah.
Seth Johnson:So let's keep going.
Erik Cargill:There's an aspect of community here that overarching AIGA connection and their leadership retreats and there's a lot of things that we learned at those retreats, but there was also the social aspects of that. What are some of the after program things that you guys can think of that stand out in your mind as either very inspirational or even just
Seth Johnson:nutty. Nutty.
Rachel Elnar:Or do you remember anything? Yeah.
Erik Cargill:A loaded question.
Seth Johnson:I know. It's a loaded question. I, you know, I didn't have the healthiest relationship with alcohol for quite a while. And in sort of preparing to have this conversation, I just kept coming back in my mind about, like, man, I don't know how we drank so much. I mean, like, that was not healthy.
Seth Johnson:We sure had fun. At least I sure had fun. But, man, if that was there was a lot of drinking going on.
Rachel Elnar:There was a lot of drinking. I'm so sorry, but I remember,
Seth Johnson:I don't know. Like, I honestly don't know how I how we did it, and then you get back. Then you have to get up in the morning, and then, like, go do go do stuff.
Rachel Elnar:Brian Singer is like, I I don't know. I don't remember. Like, he didn't remember Yeah. Almost any of them or which one came in when or what what scenario was it like. We were drinking a lot.
Seth Johnson:Yeah. I can't say that I'm proud of it. Some things really stand out to me. The program that others on this on this amazing podcast have talked about, gay IGA, which I I believe I believe Josh Silverman either started it or certainly introduced me to it. And I I remember going to that first one.
Seth Johnson:I don't remember exactly where it was. And really feeling a sense of belonging that, you know, man, if this is an organization where sort of in the after hours, there's this tradition, and it's not just gay people who are doing it or going there, sign me up. I that that really made me feel like I was like, I'd found some place where I could where I could be myself. Jenny, you must remember the VP couch.
Jenny Price:Oh. Yes.
Rachel Elnar:The VP
Seth Johnson:couch. What's the
Erik Cargill:VP couch?
Seth Johnson:Do know how that started? The v VP, right, vice president couch.
Jenny Price:I thought didn't Jen Soik start that?
Seth Johnson:You know, I I think Jen Soick, who was vice president when I was president of the Minnesota chapter, amazing Jen Soick. I think Jen Soick and maybe Karen Carricki from Jacksonville started that. And if if I remember correctly, the idea was being the vice president of a chapter is a really tough job. Being president of the chapter is a really tough job too. But the VP oftentimes, like, they sort of get everything that doesn't fall to any other named board member.
Seth Johnson:And I remember Jen and Karen thinking, alright. Let's gather the VPs together. You know, the the presidents get to go to the fancy dinner at the beginning of the leadership retreat with all the other presidents and Rick. And I think Jen and Karen were like, you know what? We're gonna GSD.
Seth Johnson:We're gonna get the vice presidents together, you know, like, on the on these couches in this lobby, and it's we're just gonna talk with each other and be together with our fellow VPs. And I think that endured for quite a while.
Erik Cargill:Oh, wow.
Jenny Price:I do remember being I think it was on the Salt Lake City. It was a Salt Lake City retreat. I was on that VP couch and you basically did go find the VPs and bring them together on this couch. It was like an impromptu moment. Again, they're usually always impromptu moments.
Jenny Price:And those are some of my favorite moments where, you know, you might not know everybody, but that's sort of the icebreaker to get to know everybody. And, you know, begin to exchange notes, stories, ideas, what's working, what's not, like, and and then some. So that that moment. I will say also at that hotel, it was like
Seth Johnson:That was a nice hotel.
Jenny Price:Marble everywhere. But I remember at the check-in, they had I wish I had the photo. The check-in, they had a a profile of who we were, who AIGA people were. And it said they like to stay up late, they like to dance, they like to drink, and they eat a lot of food or something. It had a whole list.
Jenny Price:And like, was right there, and I could see it.
Seth Johnson:Yeah. Like, Kelsey
Jenny Price:is just take a photo. And I was like, they're pro they this is what they think of us.
Seth Johnson:And I And we do lot of human pyramids.
Jenny Price:Yes. And they had very fancy security in, like, head to toe suits with, like, earpieces because it was a very it was marble everywhere in that hotel. It was, like, made for the Olympics, I think. So we were at a very prestigious hotel. And I'll forget that profile of what AIG That's hilarious.
Jenny Price:Enemies are.
Seth Johnson:Wow. Like, be on the lookout for these ruffians.
Erik Cargill:What a way to welcome in designers and have a full UX profile drawn up for the Yeah. The group that's coming in. I love it.
Seth Johnson:Right. Yeah. For, like, your security staff. Yeah.
Jenny Price:Yeah. Yep. I remember we had to keep moving rooms there, and I think that's when Nick was in, like Nick Parastaleo was in, like, a squirrel costume. Is that when he would wear? He wore that some he wore that somewhere, And he was I feel like it was there.
Jenny Price:Don't quote me on that. I could be wrong in the location. But he wore that outfit. It was like a period where he would bring different costumes, like mascots of sorts.
Seth Johnson:See, I don't remember that, but that that sounds exactly like something that Nick would do, which is one of the many reasons why we love him. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know that for for for quite a while, human pyramids were a big thing, and I and I rem and Mike Josie just was such a grouch about them and which was endearing. And I I don't know this to be fact, but I think that the world has that Minnesota chapter to blame for human pyramids.
Seth Johnson:I think they were started by Lauren Langfett of AIGA Minnesota. And I remember my first retreat was 2009 in Portland, and Lauren couldn't go. And I was offered the opportunity to go in her stead. And she was bummed that she couldn't go. And I remember her telling me ahead of time, she sort of sat me down and was like, okay.
Seth Johnson:Here's what you here's what you're gonna expect. Here you I need to I need to prep you. And thank goodness she did. And she, you know, told me lots of things and and she made this diagram. Like, she illustrated it in Adobe, this diagram of how to safely do human pyramids.
Seth Johnson:And she's like, print this out, Make lots of copies. She said, because everyone's gonna expect you from Minnesota to lead people in human pyramids, and I and we don't want anyone getting hurt. And I was I didn't know what I was getting into. I was naive, and I was like, oh, okay. And so I showed up, and sure enough, lots of people were like, oh, you're okay.
Seth Johnson:Well, you must be alright. Where are we doing the pyramid? And I had never I'm about the most inathletic person in the world. I had never done a human pyramid before, so I was like, well, maybe it's I don't know. Do it there.
Seth Johnson:I've got this diagram.
Jenny Price:So I think showed me the diagram. You showed me that diagram. I
Seth Johnson:I don't know if I have the diagram, but I do. In fact, I should have I'll I'll find this. I have a it was maybe the next year. We drew a diagram. It was like a seating chart of who of how we were going to make, like, a six stacker, like, six levels.
Seth Johnson:And so it required a bit of planning, And we drew Vera Croussette and I drew it out on a napkin, and it's got a bunch of names crossed out and a bunch of new names because we were thinking, no. He if he's gonna be there, then she has to be here. And I still have that dye. I still have that napkin someplace. And I think we did accomplish it.
Seth Johnson:And I think Carolyn Kallena was on top. She was a great topper.
Jenny Price:Oh, yeah.
Seth Johnson:She was fearless, and she had the size for it.
Jenny Price:Yes. And I remember one of the things was we had to be quick because we were usually going to be, like, told otherwise not to do it depending on where we were.
Seth Johnson:Yeah. Were gonna shut down. Yeah.
Jenny Price:Yeah. So it always was
Seth Johnson:very insurance liability?
Jenny Price:And then Brendan Shanley, of course, he's like the master behind Sweetest person in the world. Others to to do proper pyramids. I mean Yeah. For real.
Seth Johnson:Mhmm. Yeah. We have a lot of really good photographs from several years of retreats and conferences, behind the scenes, late at night photographs, really good ones courtesy of Brendan because he was always there with his camera.
Rachel Elnar:Mhmm. Oh, I'm so excited to see this. So this is really interesting. So, yes, Lauren Langfitt. She definitely started this in Omaha.
Seth Johnson:I'm glad you confirmed that. That I that that that had always just sort of been a suspicion of mine that it started with her. And and I was used, apparently, as this, like, unwitting agent of carnage for so I hope I have
Rachel Elnar:a job Omaha. I was there in Omaha, so I Okay. I do remember that. And I didn't know you bridged the gap. So if you did not go and she did not go, then we would not be doing human period pyramids today.
Seth Johnson:Yeah. Maybe not.
Rachel Elnar:Do it again. Yeah.
Seth Johnson:I don't you love me for it or hate me for it, I guess.
Rachel Elnar:So thank you, Seth, for continuing the tradition.
Seth Johnson:And, man, you know, those retreats, I know we've like, those retreats were just they were really special. The the the the best way I can describe them, and they were they're like they were like a cross between a design conference and a political convention. You know, we were we were were passionate at those. Mhmm. You know, maybe even with a little like, with a side order of, like, evangelical revival meeting thrown in.
Seth Johnson:Yes. They were a sight to behold and absolutely a wonder and such a privilege to experience.
Erik Cargill:Well said. Well put. That was yeah. That you know, It's always been tough to put words to that feeling. And that was very well put.
Erik Cargill:Mean, wouldn't know how else to describe that. Because there was that kind of high that you got after leaving. Trying to turn to your colleague next to you who didn't have that experience and try and either explain that to them or almost have this expectation of, oh, you're going to relate to me in this way, right? Right? No?
Erik Cargill:Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Elnar:I'm really interested in any memory that you have together at a specific leadership retreat. Let's first of all, how many leadership retreats have you been to together?
Seth Johnson:I've got a list here. I'm gonna count, but I bet Jenny has counted ahead of time because Jenny does her homework more than I do. One, two, three. I
Jenny Price:have my answer. Let's see if I'm
Seth Johnson:I think I've been to seven.
Jenny Price:I've been to
Seth Johnson:Maybe six. Eight. Doesn't surprise me that you've been more to more than I was.
Jenny Price:But I think six for you and me, because in the last two are where when I did the council chair work.
Seth Johnson:Okay. Were you at Chattanooga? Which was your first?
Jenny Price:No. Minneapolis.
Seth Johnson:Oh, that's right. I said that earlier.
Jenny Price:Okay. Everyone thinks I was at Chattanooga though. They actually didn't believe just when I told them. They were like, you were there last year. I said, no, I was not.
Jenny Price:I was not, but I I was like, I'll take it. Okay. I was there. I just started saying I I I think I did start saying I was there because everyone thought
Erik Cargill:was there.
Seth Johnson:That's where I became really close with a dear friend Jenny of ours with with our friend Brent Stickles.
Rachel Elnar:Oh, yeah?
Seth Johnson:Was that we was at the Chattanooga retreat. But let's see. Things with us together, Jenny. I the the the the moment that stands out sharpest in my mind, if if for no other reason because there's a photograph of it, is and it might not have even been at a retreat. I can't remember where it was.
Seth Johnson:You might remember where it was, where we were at a Denny's late at night, like two, three in the morning, and we were sort of a ruckus crew. Jacksonville was there. So of course, you're guaranteed that it's going to be a ruckus crew. And Jenny, you somehow got into an arm wrestling match with John Morrow or David Yep. Is that who it was?
Jenny Price:We were waiting for our food. Was like hours and hours, and we were kinda bored.
Seth Johnson:Tell tell the story.
Jenny Price:I remember we were bored. There was about 20 of us, I swear, at this table. I have the photo of the long table.
Seth Johnson:Yeah.
Jenny Price:And Brandon was walking around bringing us coffee because, like, our our, like, he was, like, serving us coffee because and he was taking photos. And so David and I started I just had done been doing this random arm wrestling icebreaker with people at retreats. And we were at the end of the table. And so I said, David, do you wanna arm wrestle while we're waiting? And, yeah, we did.
Jenny Price:And I don't know, Seth, you tell like, it was embarrassing. I was embarrassed because I, like,
Seth Johnson:So they were arm wrestling and somehow Jenny because Jenny is such a badass. Jenny, like, flipped David out of his chair. He's ass overhealed backwards on the floor. The chair is laying upside down. And Jenny the photo that I remember is Jenny sitting there doing this, like, embarrassed that your biceps of power had so much impact?
Jenny Price:Hey. The photo is priceless. It
Seth Johnson:is priceless. Yep.
Jenny Price:Brendan caught that snapshot, and it was like he's, like, smiling, flying back, and I'm just like, oh my gosh. I was like, I did not anticipate that. I was that but I was like, okay. I I guess I am that strong. I
Seth Johnson:You are. Jenny is like a serious badass.
Rachel Elnar:Well, thank you.
Seth Johnson:So, yeah, I I remember I remember that. K.
Jenny Price:I remember finding the the million dollar mirror in that Salt Lake.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah.
Jenny Price:There's a mirror that was worth a million dollars they said. So Seth and I went to go find it and we took a selfie in front of it. It was in this room. We don't I don't even know if it was true, I could guess it would be because it was a very expensive place we were at. Oh, yeah.
Jenny Price:I remember that photo vividly. A lot of it is related to pictures too. Yeah.
Seth Johnson:I wasn't all that impressed. A million dollars for this thing?
Jenny Price:We're like, there it is. We found it. I know.
Seth Johnson:I was impressed that we found it.
Jenny Price:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We were in the hunt for that for a little bit.
Rachel Elnar:We were in
Erik Cargill:the hunt. Was it labeled? Was it clearly labeled? Like
Jenny Price:No.
Erik Cargill:This mirror?
Jenny Price:No. Had asked a bunch of people that worked there. We were asking the people that worked there, like, where is this thing? We heard there's a million dollar Can you show us? Someone finally told us where
Seth Johnson:it was.
Jenny Price:I don't I don't know if they thought we were gonna do something
Seth Johnson:Yeah. To They probably thought we wanted to seal it or something
Jenny Price:like that. Think about too even just, like, Seth, some things that stand out too is our, like, the portfolio work that we one on like, before the one on one for AIG in Minnesota. And
Seth Johnson:like Yeah. The student portfolio review.
Jenny Price:Doing that with you, and like spending time with you, and the students, and and Yeah. That that was and then design camp for AIG in Minnesota as well. Certainly, like, seeing Chip Kidd sing karaoke, Paul Mendoza, you know, traveled there. Did amazing karaoke.
Seth Johnson:Did anything out with Doyle Young for a weekend? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Seth Johnson:Had campfires.
Jenny Price:Yeah. Yes. Like those moments yeah. And I remember the the GAIN conferences, I will say, most of presenters had, like, super shitty presentation decks because they were non designers. So and Seth and I would sit in the front row.
Jenny Price:We were always in the front row.
Seth Johnson:Yeah. We were always the front rowers.
Jenny Price:That was that was our thing where either Seth or I would save each other a seat. We'd be up front, like, the biggest nerds Yeah. Taking it off.
Seth Johnson:I mean, I I I remember, you know, just always having not just a sort of a trusted friend, Jenny, in you, but I I always knew that you were gonna be as passionate about the promise of community building with AIGA as I was going to be. I've got a I've got a really good friend of mine who's not a designer. And a long time ago, once he was we were in a group, and I'd said something about AIGA, and someone else asked, what's AIGA? And my friend was like, ugh, AIGA. It's like student council for designers.
Seth Johnson:And he was like, he's right. It's like, oh my gosh. Like, these are the people who are passionate about making a difference. They're passionate about building their community. They're passionate about representing others.
Seth Johnson:They're passionate about showing up. And one of the things that I just always loved about working, Jenny, with with you, and, of course, still do, is that you're we're we're we're both we're both serious about that. Not in an unfun way, but, you know, to me, AIGA wasn't isn't, you know, just about getting some events together. To me, it's about making something that will outlast you. It's about bringing people together in a way that makes them choose to.
Seth Johnson:That's another you know, I'm I'm now I I've at I d I've I've I've become a you know, I I I manage people at IBM, something I never thought I would do in my career, and learning some critical aspects of leadership and even specifically people leadership was something that I think my AIGA service really, really left in me, in that you had to learn as leader in AIGA, you had to learn how to lead in a way that inspires others to choose to follow you. It was a volunteer based thing, right? So, you know, Okay, well, we've got to get these people together and we've got to get them oriented in same direction and sewing up together at, you know, planning something and pulling it off and then, you know, figuring out how to do it. That doesn't happen in a volunteer organization if it's not being led well. And to this day, I view my leadership in a corporation much in the same way that I I strive to treat my employees as if they're volunteering, as if they are choosing every day to stay working on my team as opposed to someone else's team or as opposed to at another company.
Seth Johnson:And so learning how to get people motivated who are volunteers is, in my experience, a great way to learn how to lead teams in a business.
Rachel Elnar:That is pretty much leadership in a in a a single sentence. I mean, you've pretty much encapsulated that. And what's great about you two is that you were in the front row cheering us on. Right? It's not like you were trying to get whatever you want out of it, but you're definitely making sure that everybody who is at the leadership retreat, wherever they were, or whoever was on stage, you were cheering them on, making sure that everyone got the same experience.
Rachel Elnar:Really appreciate that. And you've both contributed to many communities, not just Minnesota, but, you know, national and, of course, our leadership community, you're well known. I I mean, I remember seeing you two always walking together wherever we go. Oh. Yeah.
Rachel Elnar:And always feels like home when you know that you're at a leadership retreat or even a conference and see Seth and Jenny there. So I just wanted to say thank you so much for just not only bringing all the leadership lessons that you've learned from AIJ to IBM and sort of showing us the way. Watching your career grow is so inspirational to me because I feel like, okay. I I don't have to be stuck in one place. I can also follow with everything.
Rachel Elnar:So just wanna say thank you for that.
Jenny Price:Yes. Hear. Hear. Appreciate that.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. Hear. Hear. Lots of General Motors. Would you Yeah.
Rachel Elnar:Drive around multiple cars. I'm excited. Gosh. Well, thank you so much again. Really appreciate the time.
Rachel Elnar:It was great to reminisce. And I talked about all this stuff, and I'll just have to find that photo of us all three sitting on the bed. Okay. I'll tell you exactly what the story was. Yes.
Rachel Elnar:Okay.
Jenny Price:And then
Rachel Elnar:I This is before I hurt myself. Do you guys remember Denver?
Jenny Price:Yes. Alright. Yep. Yep. We were in the
Seth Johnson:Philly Denver.
Rachel Elnar:Okay. No. Then that's Denver. That must Okay. That must have been Grand Rapids?
Seth Johnson:Wasn't that Philly either?
Rachel Elnar:Grand Rapids. That must have been Grand Rapids.
Seth Johnson:I was there. I was there.
Rachel Elnar:K.
Seth Johnson:Okay. So it's Grand Rapids, you think?
Rachel Elnar:It was Grand Rapids. So I remember sitting on this bed. You two were sitting up against the headboard, and I came down and sat down and took a photo with you three and then of you two. And we were just watching them assemble a pyramid, and we're just and you're smiling, just soaking it in. That's all that moment was, was just amid the chaos and yelling and figuring out who guys don't tell We were just like You were both smiling and just enjoying yourself.
Rachel Elnar:It was a moment of zen Yeah. In this moment.
Seth Johnson:Well, probably also kind of endearingly witness what we had created. That look at look at what's happening years later without us lifting a finger to make it so. Yeah.
Rachel Elnar:Yes. Like, those baby pyramids grew up to be teenage pyramids. Look into The daybreaker.
Seth Johnson:Love The diagram.
Rachel Elnar:I would
Jenny Price:love to see the picture.
Rachel Elnar:Will not wait to see that. Yes. Yeah. That's great.
Jenny Price:Thank for you sharing that memory.
Seth Johnson:Yeah. That's wonderful.
Jenny Price:And, you know, really yeah. Thank you for inviting us to to speak because I do I I'm just remarkably impressed about what humans can accomplish on such lack of sleep as well. Like, I don't know about you all, but like all the work that we did Nah. Volunteering above and beyond our day jobs and, you know, that proof is, like, evident, like you said, in these memories, in these unbreakable bonds that we've formed. My ride or die Seth, I love you.
Jenny Price:I mean Love
Seth Johnson:you too.
Jenny Price:And the stories that are being shared on this podcast because of you all putting this together to to share the space for us to share memories is priceless and it's remarkable. So I appreciate this greatly.
Seth Johnson:I agree, Rachel. What a gift you're giving everyone. Rachel and Erik. Thank you.
Rachel Elnar:Have a good one, guys. Alright. Appreciate it. Love you. Okay.
Seth Johnson:Bye, everyone.
Rachel Elnar:Bye. Cheers and Tiers. We'll be back next time with more design leadership tales retold.
Erik Cargill:Please subscribe, rate, review, and share this podcast with your creative community, design leaders, and friends.
Rachel Elnar:Cheers and Tiers Design Leadership Tales Retold is a production of chapter two and hosted by us, Rachel Elnar and Erik Cargill. This episode was produced and edited by Rachel Elnar. Podcast graphics by Erik Cargill. Animation by Verso Design and Megatoe Design.
Erik Cargill:The theme music track is Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans. Follow Cheers and Tears on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube podcasts, or wherever you get your audio and video podcasts. Subscribe to our email list at cheersandtiers dot com so you don't miss an episode.