Chapter two.
Erik Cargill:I'm Erik Cargill.
Rachel Elnar:And I'm Rachel Elnar. And this is Cheers and Tiers.
Erik Cargill:Design leadership tales retold. How are
Rachel Elnar:you doing, Erik?
Erik Cargill:I'm doing well. How are you, Rachel?
Rachel Elnar:Good. You know, we have two creative and community powerhouse as our guests. Jen is the associate dean and full professor at Cleveland State University, and her design work has been celebrated in Howe, Print and Communication Arts. She's coauthored four internationally distributed books with her husband Ken, including the Information Design Handbook, and we're thrilled to have her expertise and infectious energy with us. Justin is the brand strategist and chief creative officer of Rule twenty nine, a certified b corporation where he's helped everyone from scrappy startups to fortune 50 companies tell their stories and grow their impact.
Rachel Elnar:He's a TEDx speaker, podcast host of Design Of and Creative Shitshow, and created world changing initiatives like Wheels for Water, which brought clean water to over 20,000 people in Africa. We could not be more excited to dive into both of their insights today. Please welcome Jen Vaisakhi O'Grady and Justin Arons.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Thank you.
Erik Cargill:Thanks for being here, guys.
Justin Ahrens:Oh, it's so good to be here.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yeah. Thanks for having us.
Rachel Elnar:Of course. Of course. You know, we there are I know you through AIGA and have seen you on stage and seen you in conferences, but we're really gonna just dig deep and see what leadership retreats you've both been to, kind of dig into the stories, find out what you've learned from your time and leadership with AIGA. Just to give the audience a little more information about both of you in terms of your relationship to AIGA and your leadership experience in AIGA Jen, could you tell us a little bit about your experience with the chapters?
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yeah. I I think was trying to list it all out because I feel like I was in AIGA life or just for, like, a very long time involved in lots of ways. So I think I probably attended some AIGA events as a student at Kent State when I was there. And then when I started teaching at Cleveland State, it was a very small program and it started with me and it was a concentration of design in an art department. And I wanted to bring more design expertise than I could as one faculty member.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:So I started a student chapter. And so AIGA Cleveland State still has a student chapter twenty some years later. I got involved with the local board in Cleveland, and I think I first got involved as the design education chair because that made the most sense. And then I wrangled Ken, my husband, onto the board too because it was easier for us to do things together because it was a lot of time away. And so I think between he and I, we served in every board position, and eventually I made it to the presidency of AIGA Cleveland.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:From there, Ken and I were both involved on the AIGA design educator steering committee at a national level. I think I my claim to fame is really exciting there. I wrote the bylaws. Super fun. Preparing me to future dean.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And then I served on the national board for a time, and I got to serve with Justin, which was pretty pretty cool. So I think Justin and I met for the first time at my very first AIGA leadership retreat, and I was looking that up. It was in 02/2003.
Justin Ahrens:And we have to tell that story later because that is a fantastic moment that we can share for sure.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:For sure.
Erik Cargill:Oh, love to hear it. 02/2003, that was Austin. Correct?
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yep. Yep. Oh, impressive. Erik. I'm not gonna remember where half of them were.
Erik Cargill:Yeah. I have a cheat sheet.
Justin Ahrens:I like it. I like it.
Erik Cargill:Cheat sheet. I was not there. I mean, I'm I'm talking like I was there, but I was not there.
Justin Ahrens:No. That was a legendary, retreat for AIGA. And and we couldn't talk about that, but that's when Clement Mock, you know, released, sort of the AIGA design process perspective. And I was sitting next to Jen during that release. And, yeah, it was pretty funny.
Erik Cargill:Fantastic.
Rachel Elnar:Exciting. All right, Justin, you wanna dig in?
Justin Ahrens:Yeah. I've I became familiar with AIGA in college. I didn't really exactly know what it was. And I started my career in Arizona and, the Arizona AIGA was was pretty small then, but incredibly active. So I joined, you know, as a volunteer and then was on the board.
Justin Ahrens:And my last assignment there or was doing our our our first big design show where we had speakers come in. What's it called? Good Design is Good Business little conference. Then I moved back to Chicago and I joined the board there and was on the board for a long, long time and, had done some things now and then for National. And then, I think Jen joined the board a year before me.
Justin Ahrens:I can't remember exactly, but then I was on National board, really to lift up the design for good, perspective and initiative and was on that board for, a good amount of time. And I I really enjoyed my time with that team. And then it was weird that after I left that board, it just sort of was crickets for a while, and I and I missed it because, honestly, I'm here with Jen and, well, and, you know, Rachel, Erik, we just met, but it because of AIGA. And so to me, it's it's a mystery how the young younger generation is connecting because without AIGA, I wouldn't be where I'm at, no doubt.
Erik Cargill:That's a very good point. We've been curious as well you know, throughout this podcast, trying to understand where people are getting their community, their sense of community. So, yeah, go ahead, Jen.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I was just talking to colleagues at the university, and one just went to a stats conference, and he's a vice provost now. And so we're all a little removed from our disciplines because we're in the management of the university at this point. And he was so happy to be back at this conference full of people he was used to seeing for years and years. And we were all kind of wondering what's happening to junior faculty who don't get to do as much in person now because so much is online and it just doesn't help you make the same kind of connections. So I'm hoping things are I think sometimes it feels easier to have that online thing and you can pop in and pop out of it.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:But the connections that I made in person at AIGA events have changed my life. Like I'm going on vacation with Justin next week because of AIGA, you know? And there's this like long path to it, but it's not just Justin and I are buddies. It's like our whole families are like family now. And I I think that you don't get that kind of stuff from an online conference probably.
Justin Ahrens:Yeah. I mean, I think for for me, a part of my routine, geez, for the first twenty years of my career was planning, you know, going to the national retreat, going to the conference, who are we gonna see? What are we gonna do? How many extra days am I gonna stay? Where are we gonna go?
Justin Ahrens:And to Jen's point, what's what's interesting, I was thinking about this this morning, our kids grew up together, because we met and we took advantage of us, you know, being together at at different, you know, places. And, so, yeah, I owe AIGA a lot.
Rachel Elnar:Same. Same here. And the leadership retreats. I can tell you that I turned down being a, bridesmaid to my cousin's wedding because it was on the same day as the Denver retreat, and I had to turn her down and said, I am not coming. Was so mad.
Rachel Elnar:But I'm sorry, like the the leadership retreat is like a once in a year thing. And there's just so much, I guess you call it FOMO. Like, I can't miss out. I need to be there with all of my family per se.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yeah. It was a really unique conference too. Like in in a career of different conference experiences, that's the one where the buy in was your work. You know? Like you had to have been hustling for an organization all year long to be like chosen to be one of the people that got to come.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And then you had homework when you got home from it. Right? Because you were spreading the message that you got at that leadership retreat out to the population of your chapter, to student groups and things like that. And so it was a really unique experience because I think everybody that was there felt sort of blessed to be there, but then felt like they were carrying something forward. And so there was a mission involved with it too.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And it was really kind of beautiful.
Rachel Elnar:It was so meaningful.
Justin Ahrens:I loved being seemingly at the forefront of our industry's thinking and where it was going, what it was doing. And as a business owner, I love talking to other business owners there and just understanding how their work was going, how projects were, what the climate was like. I mean, that is an important part. But then of course, catching up with everyone personally was brilliant.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Oh, the social and the cool. Like, you know, everybody, you would sit there at the opening and as you were listening, you could just like look across the rows and everyone had cool sneakers on. Right? Like I'd come home and I'd be like, I'm getting Adidas like that as soon as I get back. There was just this sort of like trend setting.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I recently went to a conference for academic provosts and deans, and my only experience has ever been design conferences. So AIGA stuff, like the leadership retreat that was really hands on, or you know, going and kind of listening as a participant. And this was, you know, great content, but it wasn't the crowd I was used to. You know? There's moments when you're in a crowd of, like, this feels like my people.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And I I felt like the weird went out because I think I had a red shoes on one day or something. Like, everybody came to breakfast in a blue blazer. It was just a totally different experience than AIGA.
Justin Ahrens:There's no pyramid making and doing shots at 1AM?
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:No. Nary a pyramid.
Erik Cargill:Yeah. Yeah. Nary a pyramid.
Rachel Elnar:Not yet, Jen. You can still bring this to
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:this community. You can bring it. I was always a pyramid outsider though. I'm kinda, you know, Justin can tell you, like children sing songs about me not being fun. So I never got into the pyramid.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I'd sort of watch nervously.
Justin Ahrens:My kids call her Safety Jen.
Rachel Elnar:Oh my. Safety Jen.
Justin Ahrens:We always, you know, safety, as she says, safety never takes a vacation. So you always have to be prepared.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:You always have to We'll be safe next week. Yeah.
Rachel Elnar:Okay. So I will call out though. I remember some leadership retreat or something. I was not there at this leadership retreat. I did get a bunch of photos of Jen doing a presentation, and yet she showed a photo of me at the top of a pyramid in Grand Rapids on the bowling alley.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I believe I asked for permission to show that photo, and you were very gracious. I was like, I need a I need a pyramid photo. Who would have one? Rachel will have one for sure. And that was a I think that was the Raleigh retreat, and we were trying to get everybody involved in the big get out the vote campaign.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And, you know, it's back when we were trying to save democracy.
Justin Ahrens:That was a great retreat, by the way.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:It really was. Yeah. I think Matt Munoz
Justin Ahrens:Yeah.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Was in backyard and so that really We
Justin Ahrens:made him host us. And
Rachel Elnar:he was probably happy too. I mean, he's another great leader.
Erik Cargill:Mean, don't tell him
Justin Ahrens:I said this, but he's he's not only a a a incredible dude. He's just a prince of a friend.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Aw. He really is.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. We won't tell him.
Erik Cargill:Well, we won't tell him.
Rachel Elnar:It's just on his podcast. Perfect.
Erik Cargill:We won't say a word.
Rachel Elnar:So let's talk about those retreats. You talked about Austin. You said Raleigh. What are some that you can you tell us a little bit about your interaction or any stories of leadership or non leadership maybe?
Justin Ahrens:Jen, you keep me honest here on the Austin retreat. Okay. So we were at Austin. That wasn't my first one, but it was like my first one in in leadership. Because I think when I joined AIGA Arizona, we we hosted it one year, but I didn't I didn't have any understanding of what it was.
Justin Ahrens:But I remember we both went to Clement Mock's presentation and I don't remember what he said, but at one point, Jen and I looked at each other and we're like, this guy is way smarter than everyone in this room times a 100.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yes. I've never done exactly.
Justin Ahrens:And we both started laughing. And at that point, I think we hung out the whole leadership retreat just getting to know different things. But I was excited to have EIGA establish a process, like a design thinking process. Because at that time, I think that, you know, brand hadn't taken off as it has the last, you know, five, ten years as far as people understanding it more than they have since I've been a professional.
Rachel Elnar:Mhmm.
Justin Ahrens:And I loved taking that, process and applying it to our own, wording and that sort of thing. But the whole weekend, I think we were just laughing on, just there were so many brilliant conversations going on, you know, to Jen's point, like you'd sit down and you start talking to Clement or and then you try to resist, you know, to go skinny dipping with Mark English and and his GP kept bringing hordes of people to the Austin River, I think, or somewhere. So it was just this great dichotomy of fun and and brilliance and just tomfoolery. It was fantastic.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I remember seeing Mark English pull a person off of a woman was dancing on top of a pool table, and he was like, no. Too far. You dance on top of the barre, you never dance on top of the pool table.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah, that's great.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Which never happens at the dean conferences, by the way.
Justin Ahrens:Yeah.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Don't think. Not yet. Not yet. Yet. It's always fun.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yeah, my recollection of that conversation with Justin, it's one of the things I tell my students, because when students are getting ready to launch, I think they're so nervous. Right? And like, how will I meet people and how will I connect? And so Justin and I were at a small group, and maybe there were 30 of us in the room. You were at a table with people and we just sort of lucked out to be at the same table.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And we had had shared like some polite conversation at the table, but I got braved by the end of it. And it was a thing that I did in my twenties, I'd make myself say something at any, like, big event I went to when it was question time. I'd be like, okay, get brave, get brave, get brave. And I'd write questions down and then I'd be like and say one thing. And saying one thing at the end of Clement Mott talking, like, was just so ahead of everyone in the room.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Like, he he had such kind of intellectual ideas. And I think we were in a shift then from design being always so much about the style to really being about, like, the the strategy and the thinking behind it. And so it was a very academic approach in an audience. I think it was one of the last days of the retreat. So people had been partying all weekend, and you sat down, and I'm sure some people were pretty hungover at this very intellectual, professorial kind of conversation.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And so after I spoke and asked my question and Clement gave whatever answer he gave, I don't remember the Clement interaction, I remember the Justin interaction. Because Justin was like, hey, thank you for asking that question when the conversation was done. A lot of people in the room had the same question and you you spoke really eloquently and I I really enjoyed talking to you today. And it was that little bit of kindness. So the next time Justin and I saw each other at a retreat or it might have been we judged the Phoenix competition, like, year or two later It was.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:With Ben too. Yeah. I was like, oh, that's that nice guy that I met at the retreat. And then, you know, like, a year or two later, we were at I think it was another leadership retreat in Los or not Los Angeles,
Justin Ahrens:Las Vegas. Yeah.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Las Vegas. Yeah. And I was like super pregnant. Like like I looked like if I walked too fast, would have a baby. And I got to meet Sarah there.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Like, all of a sudden we started like crossing each other's paths regularly in in social ways and meeting up at the How conferences. And I think, know, RGD is another one of those design organizations that does a really great job with conferences. And that, like, connection through AIGA started to turn into a friendship. And it's just one of the, like, best friendships of my life. Super, super grateful for it.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:It truly feels in in in adulthood, I'm saying this idea of, the family we choose. And I think there's something really beautiful about that because we're all kinda born into different groups of people, and some of us really luck out with that, and I have. But the ones that you get to pick and that pick you back are just something super special. And so it's been really neat all the way through. Thanks, Justin.
Justin Ahrens:Thank you. Seriously, this morning we're sitting around the table, I have four kids, and they were just talking about how excited they are to be with Jen Ken and their daughter Lulu next week. And so it was interesting that that conversation came up on the morning that we're recording this podcast. And so I'm sure people meet in a bunch of different conferences, of course. I think what's unique about AIGA, especially leadership retreats, is you're there for several reasons.
Justin Ahrens:One, were there to talk passionately about a profession that we all truly care about and love. And then also go out and passionately have a good time no matter what you're doing, if you're building pyramids or going out or having dinner or whatever else. There's not a leadership retreat I went to that I didn't come home with a binder full of notes and a bunch of new friends. And my wife jokes around, we go on vacation. She's like, who do you know in that state that's a AIGA member?
Justin Ahrens:Because, you know, they're gonna have a great restaurant list. And I think that's one of the things I feel sad for the younger generation. They don't have that access to. I could pick up any, call anyone or text anyone that's in that town. They'll be like, oh, go to these five places.
Justin Ahrens:Don't go to that place. It's just one of the side benefits.
Rachel Elnar:I think it's a benefit of being part of the leadership retreat. I mean, being a member and being a leader within a chapter, one thing. But if you were part of a leadership retreat, that's when that gold struck. Right? That's when you got that benefit.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yeah. There were such unique curated experiences. Like I remember at Austin, we got to go to two places I would have never ventured to. One was the Salt Lick barbecue, which was in a dry county. Like they I felt like they bust in alcohol for AIGA to come into this county.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Do you remember that, Justin? Like there were It fireplaces was like we're on
Justin Ahrens:a ranch. Yeah, this location was like out of town in the desert. And it seemed like we were just being, you know, desperadoes out there drinking when you shouldn't be drinking. It was fantastic.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:It was a really I came home talking to Ken about it. And Ken, year for my birthday, got barbecue from the Salt Lake, like, flown in You for could order it and, like, came on dry ice and stuff. And then there was a there was, like, a Texas line dancing thing. Like, it was a circle. And I mean, that's way outside of my Clevelander experience.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:We have polka dancing in Cleveland. They probably have that in Chicago too, but we don't have like Texas line dancing in a roadhouse. And so that was pretty cool stuff in my first leadership retreat.
Justin Ahrens:I'm trying to remember what leadership retreat I went to. Debbie Millman was there and we're at a karaoke bar and she's trying to get me to sing and then money started flying around. And then I think I went up and tried to do like Baby Got Back or something.
Erik Cargill:Nice.
Justin Ahrens:And I mean, that's think about the impact of my life right there. I mean, that's a special moment.
Erik Cargill:Seattle represent.
Justin Ahrens:That's right.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I have to give you one last Austin thing because this is how embarrassing I am, and so I'm just gonna put it out on the Internet and no one will see it. Nice. But so it's my first leadership retreat. We get there the first night. I'm, like, crammed in a hotel room with two of my buddies from the Cleveland chapter, and they're like, we gotta go out.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Everybody is going to this local bar and some band is playing and I hear they're pretty good. And I was like, I got a new Harry Potter book you guys and this has just been a lot of people time for me and so I'm just gonna stay back here at the hotel and read. It was the white stripes, you guys. It was the white stripes in two hats Oh, wow. Three, which I missed to read Harry Potter in my hotel room by myself.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:So don't leadership retreat that way, like, do it better. And I grew. I met Justin, and I kinda came out of my shell a little bit. I did that thing where I asked a question here and there. But
Erik Cargill:Which book was it?
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I don't even remember.
Justin Ahrens:Jen, were you at the leadership retreat in Seattle that Terry Marks kinda programmed and did a bunch. Okay. That was that was one of my favorites just from all of the activities we did, around there.
Erik Cargill:When was that? What year was that?
Rachel Elnar:You don't have it on your list, Erik?
Erik Cargill:Well oh, 02/2002. It was the year before.
Rachel Elnar:Oh, okay.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:There you go.
Erik Cargill:Was the year before. Yeah.
Justin Ahrens:Yeah. I think that was my first one. I met Jenna my second one.
Erik Cargill:Seattle was.
Justin Ahrens:Yeah. Yeah.
Erik Cargill:Terry Terry's great.
Justin Ahrens:Yeah. Because that's when I started my love affair with Terry too. He is a beautiful one of the ultimate legends, human
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:beings. Fine human. Yeah.
Erik Cargill:He is he is he is a fine human, and and we just we just kicked off, AIGA Seattle. We just resurrected it. Awesome. He came and welcomed everybody, so it was it was great. So there's little momentum there.
Justin Ahrens:Yeah. And I will say selfishly what I loved at the end of Jenna and my tenure on the national board is Terry was with us for a while, that was fantastic.
Erik Cargill:Oh, nice.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. That's lovely.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yeah. There's there's a lot of great, like, chapter leadership reunion by the time you made it to the national board. That was pretty cool. I was thinking, as we were approaching this conversation, I was thinking about like what AIGA leadership had meant for me, or the opportunities that it gave me. And it seems to be this moment in my career where what I learned from what I was doing with the chapter became really applicable to my professional life.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And so by the time I was done with a chapter presidency, I was a chair of a department in my university. And that was a like really, really good prep work for dealing with a lot of different constituencies and personalities and how I would work in a department setting. And then I served on the national board for a while. And with the national board service behind me, I became an associate dean. And it's the same kind of thing.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Like you can see the connectivity at the different leadership levels. And I was reflecting because I think there were moments early in my career and maybe they always happen around AIGA where I feel like a very small fish in a big pond when I come to meet someone like Debbie Millman or Michael Bay Root does a lecture, you know, it sometimes is so coastal dominant, big agencies. And the leadership retreat was always great because it was such a mix of every every person from everywhere, and they were all really contributing at their local levels. And so now the college that I'm in, we have 15 departments, like 3,000 students, almost 200 faculty. It's a lot of cats to herd and constituencies to serve, and some of those departments are really big and really establish it.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:It reminds me of the chapters like New York and Chicago and LA were really big, and they knew what they were doing. Some of them even had their own executive directors and stuff. And then we've got tiny departments that might be three to five professors, and those departments need really different stuff than the very big departments do, but we all kind of push forward under the same umbrella of service at the university. And I think my time in the chapter development and then my time at the national board sort of seeing how that worked and how it got pushed out made me better at the job that I do every day now. So again, I'm really grateful.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Like, it it the time with AIGA has felt like a second graduate degree to me.
Erik Cargill:Oh, well put. Well put. I'm I'm curious. As a as an instructor, what are some of the biggest differences you've seen you have you see now compared to when you were a student, a design student?
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yeah. So to be fair, I have not taught in three or four years cause I'm just administration now, but you know with twenty some years of teaching before that, I think it's just that they have to do everything faster now and they have to do different things. So that idea of like a t shaped professional, it's got like a really short bar and a really wide horizontal line right now. And I think social media is its own beast and the technology changes all the time and AI is gonna come in and we're trying to figure out how that works. But the foundation of training your eye and helping you understand what's gonna resonate with an audience and learning how to do research.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I mean, when Justin and I were in school for sure, I didn't have any classes about design research. The most tech I got was like a one web design class probably in the software training at a very like QuarkXPress basic level. And so we spent a lot of time on like structure and typography. And sometimes I I feel like I'm hearing some old school folks lament, like, the type skills. And they may not be as strong as they used to be.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I bet Rachel has a lot to say about this. But those poor students are learning, like, so many other things on top of it. And I feel like people used to notice when something had like inch marks instead of quote marks, and all of a sudden everything's moving so fast and nothing nothing has the shelf life that it used to have. And so it's all kind of changing how critical our eyes are when we're looking at things.
Justin Ahrens:Put.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Justin, what are you seeing? Because you work with a lot of interns and young designers. Are you seeing something similar?
Justin Ahrens:Yeah, some things are the same and then also there's lots of change. So like you said, we have an intern right now and I sat down with her and we're talking about, and she's nervous about the future. And so obviously those things don't change, but she had a lot of questions about AI and all that sort of thing. And the thing that was just really challenging for her is you have all the software, you don't have all the time at college to learn all the software, but yet you need to have that experience to be more hireable. And she said that there is a lot and it's moving fast and she's talented.
Justin Ahrens:And so I just was giving her support on how to pace it out and also create a community of other students where they could commiserate and talk about what someone's learned and just kind of have a little bit of a group think in that sense. And I was thinking like little tiny AIGA pockets, Right? Because that's one of the things that I one of the many things I loved is I could go and talk to other professionals, right, that were doing their, thing as a designer out in the world and find out, you know, where their challenges or struggles and resource each other and that sort of thing. And so I think the resourcing each other, especially for that, you know, that younger generation is is challenging because they I think they think they're gonna learn online or, you know, maybe the last AI or whatever. And I'm I'm gonna be interested to see if there's there's parts of that, foundational eye that that just moves because of how fast things go.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. I think we're at a weird time right now, honestly. Not not only for I mean, design has gone through all sorts of challenges. I mean, just the advent of the Internet and digital and pulling away from print. I mean, that really, disrupted our industry for sure.
Rachel Elnar:But with AI and the loss of these communities, I think it's gonna be tougher. I'm just I hopefully, I'm wrong. And people will find their way, or maybe the industry will shape its way around this, and people will be able to figure out how to connect and learn from each other. But right now, it just feels so disparate. Like, was, talking to a friend in terms of, like, design heroes.
Rachel Elnar:I mean, when we went to AIGA leadership retreats, we could all name our design heroes. Pretty easy because all you had to do is, like, reference the design annuals. Right? Like, knew who's in there, who was winning all the time. And then we had social media.
Rachel Elnar:So who knows design heroes in my classrooms when I was teaching? They didn't have the same design heroes as I. It was people who had Instagram accounts and whatnot. And now I don't really know if there is a shared inspirational person or people are looking toward maybe, Jen, you since you're closer to students now, and the student body, maybe you would know. But right now I don't know if there's any alignment or community feeling between emerging designers.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yeah. I'm not sure I know the answer to that. And again, like it's been just being out of the classroom for three or four years, it's like a world of difference. But one of the things that I found in in the last time I taught was that the annuals gave us like a shared reference of what good looked like. And there were a lot of different versions of good and styles kinda came and went.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I always used to say, if you see, like, a big bank on a billboard using a typeface you've really liked, that's the end of it. And so it's time to put that typeface down. Alright? Like, the display font down. But I I feel like what I would do with them before we started a complex project is make them do little micro, like pachacucha style presentations where they had to find a similar project.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:So if we were designing packaging, they had to go find out and and I would give them a handful of packaging competitions and say, find something and you're gonna do just a two minute presentation on why this caught your eye. And so we'd have a class period where they all had to practice standing and talking about why they liked something and they had to pick the best images. And then we had a class website and that stuff would sit there. So if they wanted to look at it, they could. But it gave us this collective.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Everyone participated, but this is what good looks like. And on the classes and the projects that I did that in, the work that came through next, it didn't necessarily mirror or mimic, but they it was raised a little bit. Like, they had seen a level of what this is supposed to look like because most of these kids just see memes all the time. Like, it's crappy meme type and it's one image and it happens really fast and, you know, there there's like a moment for that. But when you have to design something complex and those things still need to be done, meme thinking doesn't help.
Justin Ahrens:Yeah, I would say what's interesting to me, what I see is you have designers like Ted Carpenter who has a really great Instagram personality And then I love Alan Peters. He does this thing on Instagram and where he'll look at a logo that exists and he'll redesign it. And what I love about that is that it's showing the process of thinking and how there's other possibilities. And so I have a feeling, and again, this is just a guess that, you know, that is where that is kind of their annual now. Right?
Justin Ahrens:Is going and finding these people following and and looking at what they're doing. And and so it's I think it's there. It's just it's just shifted. It's different.
Rachel Elnar:It is, but it's also not critical. So I again, like, I I'm not trying to say, hey. You know, doom and gloom on the future. I'm just wondering how are people finding good design? How are they understanding what is like great representations of classic visual communication rather than what's popular or what just comes up in your feed by the algorithm?
Erik Cargill:Yeah. It's a it's a great question. Now, I'll say from my experience, it's a great way to tank your interview. If you ask people if you ask ask them what who their design heroes are. It's it's interesting because sometimes the conversation just kinda pauses, and there's there's like this, what do you mean by design heroes?
Erik Cargill:You know? What do you what do you mean by that? You know, in in what sense? And so, you know, I've learned that, you know, who who inspires you? What inspires you?
Erik Cargill:Right. Changing the changing the the framing of that question, you know, rather than a particular person. It's a it's a what. It's an amorphous thing. It's a, well, I saw this, and this inspired me to do this.
Rachel Elnar:The wonderful thing I found about AIGA Leadership Retreats, not only does are you connected to the rest of the leadership across all the nation's chapters, is that we would have access to those design heroes. I mean, people at all different levels, those who are fully accomplished, those who are just starting out and emerging, everybody was there together kind of on the same level. And you got to know them as humans rather than looking in the annuals or whatever their you know, I met Tad Carpenter, and he's got a great Instagram, but I met him as a person, which changed things for me and made me realize, okay. I can get there. The gap between me and what he does is not that large.
Rachel Elnar:And so yeah. I mean, again, design heroes might not be the right way to put it, but the fact that you can tap into a network where you have access to humans who can do great things makes you feel better, makes you feel supported.
Justin Ahrens:Yeah. I agree. I think the design hero term is probably part of what the AIGA got heat for over the years, right? Because we would often sort of lift up the same individuals. And I would say one of the bright spots of now, and again, Rachel, you know me, I'm always half full, is that you you are able to, you know, sort of level set.
Justin Ahrens:Right? And and look at, you know, more voices out there. I would say that the the difference is is what is good and what is not good. Mhmm. Who's who's helping give input on that or who's, you know, sort of the guiding star on that.
Justin Ahrens:And I think that's interesting. That could maybe be my old school thinking. But there's times where if I can remember when I was a younger designer, I wanted to be exposed to things that were good and inspiring. And to your point, when I was able to I'm a huge Kit Heinrichs fan. The AIGA gave me an opportunity to invite him to our Good Designs, Good Business conference.
Justin Ahrens:And I ended up getting to pick him up at the airport and just talk to him. I'm just and to your point, I was just like, as crazy as it sounds, for some reason, I just didn't see some of those individuals having the same challenges I had. And they absolutely did. So that is one of the gifts of the retreats, leadership retreats, is you get to talk to people that you read about, watch about, even maybe studied in school. And now you're having conversations or exchanging emails and texts so you can talk about life and business.
Justin Ahrens:That's just incredibly special.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I think that there's a great equalizing factor and that's what we're all getting at, that you were in the same room with all these people that you'd maybe only read about previously. And I think when I was involved, like, in the early two thousands, first getting into it, there were definitely, like, hero strata, you know. And so I agree with Justin that there may be something over the years AIGA took some heat for, and I might have shoveled some of that heat out. Like I, you know, there should be a dignity to what we're all doing. And so I'm from Cleveland.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:It's not a place that anyone thinks cool, but they should. And when you come to Cleveland, I'll take you for a tour of all the cool stuff at it. Justin knows where all the cool things
Justin Ahrens:are. I'm a I'm a part of the fan club. I love Cleveland. Yeah.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:We've we've got a representative over the years, Sherrod Brown, and he he is just recently out of the senate. But he had this dignity of work tour, that was language that he used. And it was that, you know, everyone's job, matter where it was at, was really meaningful to them. And I'm loving the bear right now, because I also love Chicago. And I think one of the things that showed us so beautifully is show like all these different individuals' perspective and how much they love and care about their part of the job.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And so I think that when I was when I was seeing AIGA work the best as an organization, it was when it respected that chapter level leadership. Because every chapter has its own abilities and resources. And some of the big shiny well funded ones showed us amazing things, but so did the chapters in the middle of nowhere. Because at one point, I think there were more than 50. Right?
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Like, were every state had a chapter or multiple chapters in it. And when you came together at the leadership retreat, you never knew who you were gonna be with at at a lunch or a dinner, and you learned something from them. And there's something really beautiful about seeing people, like, do what they do best, and you got to see that with a whole group of people from a lot of different flavors of the country. And there was this, like, dignity of work moment. And I think when AIGA veers from that like through the many we are a whole, that that's when we're maybe off path.
Rachel Elnar:A 100%. And no comment as well.
Justin Ahrens:Yeah. No notes.
Erik Cargill:No notes.
Justin Ahrens:I'm done.
Rachel Elnar:No comment. Hey, Justin. I wanted to ask you because, Jen already addressed this. But what did you learn from your AIG leadership experience and how did it translate into what you're doing now?
Justin Ahrens:From the very first time where Jen asked that question, I took away a couple of things. One was if I wanted to connect and learn, I needed to be brave slash vulnerable slash open to just authentically sharing where I was. Right? And I think initially, in my first retreat or two, I went in there thinking I had to act or speak a certain type or perspective. And I think it was maybe the third or fourth retreat I went on.
Justin Ahrens:And I realized that there was people that were coming on and I had an opportunity to welcome them and bring them in. And then I was also able to be vulnerable and talk to other leaders and see that they're having some of the same challenges. So what I learned, there's a plethora of things I've learned. One, it's we're better in community. We're made for community regardless of profession, but especially in our profession, we're made for community.
Justin Ahrens:And so if I want that to happen, I need to play my part. So that was the that was the first big thing I learned. The second thing is that there are times and this is an ego driven profession at some level, right? Because think about it, there's what tell me a profession where you show your clients something every day, and part of what you show is trashed, right? Three directions only pick one.
Justin Ahrens:And so this is and so but everyone experiences that. Right? And so I needed to come to the retreats open to learn and not think that I was something other than a person. And maybe that's just unique to to to me, but that was something that I really wanted to be open to. I wanted to, if I talked to Michael Bay Root, I wanna tell him the cool things I was doing, right?
Justin Ahrens:But he doesn't care. He was just there to support an organization and have conversation. So that was huge. And then the final thing, the big thing, and this is something that Jen and I care about immensely, is helping people move forward. What is the legacy of our profession?
Justin Ahrens:And how can we help others move forward and do it better than we did, be resourced, and to continue to grow. And that's one of the things that I see now that I feel responsible in some ways, as crazy as it sounds, that as the world shifted and AIGA shifted, I wish I could have, I don't know, done more or something to, continue to help something that was so valuable to my life, both professionally and personally. And so that's really why I joined the board is I said, if I ever get a chance to join the board, I want to pay it forward of all the things that AIGA did for me. And so those are all kind of a combination of things that I bring in not only to my running, my agency, but also when I talk to my kids about when you're going out into the world and networking and everything else.
Erik Cargill:I love that intentionally shedding of the ego in order to pay it forward and bring stuff to the community. That's great. That's great.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:You know, we're talking about Oh, I'm sorry, Rachel. Just one more insight. We're talking about Justin said he talks to his kids about things. I feel like so much of what you do as a parent kind of comes from who you were maybe as a young professional and how you were learning and then you try and share the things you were learning. And I I I've told Lulu over the years, try and have friends who are like doing as well as you are or a little better.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Like be around people that inspire you. Be around people that like you keep hustling for. The leadership retreat was like that. Always knew you were gonna go once a year and run into people and you had to have some story of what you were doing too. You weren't trying to be like the shiniest person in the room, but you didn't wanna look like a slouch either.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And I think being friends with people like all of you, everyone I met on that national board, it's scary being the girl from Cleveland walking into a room like that sometimes. And it kept me on my toes. And I'm trying to relay that to my students when I'm in the classroom. I'm trying to relay it to Lulu right now that you wanna surround yourself with people who are hustling and who are like good and charismatic in connecting. And I think for this generation, we peaked back to the question, I think Erik had about students right now.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:They have a really hard time connecting sometimes with eye contact, sometimes We can talk about all the things that social media and cell phones in their hands all the time. But I think the students who are gonna move forward, wherever AI takes the job markets and all the different job markets, they're gonna be the ones that have this interpersonal skill. And that's a thing I think almost all of them have to learn how to train, because interpersonal, like charisma at school is different than it is in the workforce. And so, you know, even if you wanna hide with your Harry Potter book and there are moments where you let yourself do that, I think you have to kind of train yourself to also the next day, like raise your hand and ask a question when you're afraid. And AIGA helped me practice all that stuff.
Rachel Elnar:I think not only was it a built in community, but also we saw that there was a benefit on the other side of that, right? The fact that you had to get out of your room and and mingle with people, very scary. However, you are within a room that everybody supports you. And if you get involved in these organizations and communities, they will support you through all sorts of things. I've seen ups and downs.
Rachel Elnar:I've seen people move from jobs to jobs to state to state. And we all are aware of it because we're all supporting our network, our community. Right? And I don't know. I just hope that the younger generations realize that, that there is a benefit and that's what you should focus on and not necessarily yourself or your, you know, whatever whatever you're going through internally, remember that it benefits you, your future self, basically.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah.
Justin Ahrens:I will say one more thing too, Rachel, that I took away from AIGA. And that was the, ability to see taking big swings with things that you believe in. Some of the work we did like for Design for Good and everything else, I don't know if I ever would have done it had it not been to like Jen's point, Hey, we're gonna talk about this thing. Now we need to make it happen because we talked about it and we committed to it. And I think that that was a great motivator, one, but two, it was also a great way to understand you can't do it by And so you need to use a community to bring it to life.
Justin Ahrens:We shifted a lot of the things that we do at work based on a lot of those conversations. To Jen's point, I think it was a second degree in understanding, the power of our community. You know, think about from the voting to design for good, to whatever other initiative, that we were doing as a as an organization that they're dramatically changing me as a person, but but also with the work we did.
Rachel Elnar:I'm glad to see both of you still interacting, still vacationing together. I mean, I know that through this through this network, through this community, I've found lifelong friends. I mean, on Monday night, I had dinner with David Asari, Don Zadonis, and JP, and they were even talking about you, Jen. You know, we we
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:are just love those guys.
Rachel Elnar:You know, I I just think it's it's lifelong friends, lifelong support, and the community still means a lot to me. I hope that future generations continue to have the support that we found in our golden era. Alright. We're almost out of time, but I don't know if you guys wanna talk about Raleigh. Raleigh?
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I will say that the Raleigh retreat was the best one because Matt Munoz knew every restaurant in town, and he would get a table for 10 to 20 people. Like, I don't know how he magicked it because we're I can't get a table in my hometown for 10 to 20 people on short notice, but somehow he pulled it off every meal. So again,
Justin Ahrens:Well, because that's he's most handsome and charming.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:He really
Justin Ahrens:knows. That's for sure.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:He's terribly handsome.
Justin Ahrens:That retreat was huge for me personally, because that's when we started to release the path to impact that I had worked on with the team at AIGA. And that was really, really phenomenal. Because we'd been talking about it for, I don't know, a couple of years and we released it. I believe it was that retreat. I'm almost positive it that retreat.
Justin Ahrens:And then I think later that year we had the hard copy shipped to a national and released it more. But yeah, that was incredibly fun. But talking about getting on stage and talking about this in front of everyone, I was both super proud of the team because I I did it with a team. Right? And but also nervous about not messing it up.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I think that that the project that I was involved in in that one was the Get Out the Vote initiative. So it was like Justin saying, I had to get up there on stage in front of everyone. It was my first time speaking on the stage at a leadership retreat. And what really helped me was Karen Curicki and Francis came up. And Francis sat on, like, almost like a WWE style, like, Uncle Sam pants, like, sparkly blue, red, white, and blue outfit.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:And Karen came in a giant slice of pizza. Like, it was a big foam Halloween costume of pizza. And so I was, like, so nervous. Like, ironed Brooks Brothers shirt, like ready to give this formal presentation. And those two walked up like that with me, and I was like, okay, I got this.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:This is just I
Justin Ahrens:actually remember that morning, you guys were off on the side having coffee, and I went came up to talk to you to wish you good luck. You're like, I'm getting ready.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:I can't right now. I'm in the zone. But but it also taught me about scale. Right? Because we our goal was every member of AIGA should be registered to vote.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Like, if you just went back as a chapter leader and tried to get every like, I think at the time, maybe Cleveland had 200 members or something. Like, could you try really hard to get those 200 people registered to vote? And then when those people registered to vote, if they could each get, like, two people to register to vote, but you could see the snowball effect. And we gave small kind of low hanging fruit things that chapters could do, or really big, like someone like San Francisco where Dawn was spending like all her time and energy to work towards initiatives, they would have the power to do something bigger. Right?
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Or Augustine Garza was friends with Edward James Almos, and between the two of them, they had more Spanish language commercials about voting, and the AIGA poster became a mainstream public information thing. It was amazing what he pulled off, where I was I made a poster in Cleveland. But we were able to do so many different levels and scale it up so that anybody could grab a part of it. And that to me is still, when I'm in my job and I'm talking to 15 departments of varied resources or time, they can all kind of take an idea and pick a part of it because of the scaling that I learned through AIGA work.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah, everyone can make an impact. Thank you both much for all the impact that you have given us, through the years, not only in the leadership retreats, but just seeing you guys go through and making such an impact in the community. So thank you.
Justin Ahrens:Oh, thank you.
Erik Cargill:Where is vacation for you guys? Where are you meeting?
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:South Haven, Michigan. We call it in between. Right? Because in between Cleveland and Chicago is really like the middle of Indiana, and we're gonna go to Michigan instead instead. Okay.
Justin Ahrens:It's a beach. So yeah, we rented a big house right by the beach and so we'll all just kinda be out there and love and make fun of each other at the same time.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yep. Lots of family movie nights. We started the kids with Jaws when they were five, so we'll try and keep that
Rachel Elnar:tradition going.
Justin Ahrens:By the way, Jen, I have to tell you a quick story. So we were at the movie theater with my son, Jack, and it's the fiftieth anniversary of Jaws. And he he we're watching. He turns to me. He's like, hey.
Justin Ahrens:You remember when miss Jen played that? And I was like, yeah. Was like, it terrified me when I went to the bar. And I was like, you gotta tell her that make her feel guilty. Yeah.
Justin Ahrens:Yeah.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:We're gonna unpack guilt. Yeah. It's gonna
Rachel Elnar:be amazing. Well, have a great vacation. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.
Justin Ahrens:Thanks for doing this. We appreciate you.
Jenn Visocky O’Grady:Yep.
Rachel Elnar:Same. Yeah.
Erik Cargill:Thank you.
Rachel Elnar:Thanks, guys. Cheers and tears. We'll be back next time with more design leadership tales retold.
Erik Cargill:Please subscribe, rate, review, and share this podcast with your creative community, design leaders, and friends.
Rachel Elnar:Cheers and Tiers Design Leadership Tales Retold is a production of chapter two and hosted by us, Rachel Elnar and Erik Cargill. This episode was produced and edited by Rachel Elner. Podcast graphics by Erik Cargill. Animation by Verso Design and Megatoe Design.
Erik Cargill:The theme music track is Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans. Follow Cheers and Tiers on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube podcasts, or wherever you get your audio and video podcasts. Subscribe to our email list at cheers and tiers dot com so you don't miss an episode.