Chapter two.
Erik Cargill:I'm Erik Cargill.
Rachel Elnar:And I'm Rachel Elnar. And this is Cheers and Tiers.
Erik Cargill:Design Leadership Tales Retold.
Rachel Elnar:Hey, Erik. So we have two guests to welcome on the podcast. Our first guest is an executive creative director and partner at Graphiti, a Seattle based digital creative agency. For nearly two decades, he's led creative strategy for major clients like Amazon, Starbucks, Getty Images, Tableau. He's known for his human centered design approach and has been deeply involved in the design community, serving multiple terms on AIGA Seattle's executive board as programming director, vice president, and president.
Rachel Elnar:He lives with his wife, Alexis, and their two dogs, Enzo and Ollie. And his leadership retreat buddy is here with us too. This guest is a founder and principal at Mentor Creative Group, a Seattle agency he started in 2014. With over twenty years of design and technology, he leads a team that tackles everything from branding to web development for enterprise clients. He's held leadership roles at Deloitte Digital and AIG Seattle, and has taught at the Art Institutes.
Rachel Elnar:He also holds a BFA and MFA degree from the Savannah College of Art and Design. Say hello to Kevin Berger and Aaron Schertz.
Erik Cargill:All right, guys.
Aaron Shurts:Hey, welcome. Hello.
Erik Cargill:Welcome and thank you, Aaron, for letting us invade your space. Sure. Absolutely.
Aaron Shurts:Glad to have you here.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about the space we're in right now?
Aaron Shurts:Sure. Like I don't know if I can answer it,
Rachel Elnar:but Okay.
Aaron Shurts:I mean, yeah, fire away.
Rachel Elnar:This is a gorgeous space. We're in the we're in Seattle. Ballard.
Kevin Berger:We are
Aaron Shurts:in Ballard. Neighborhood of Seattle.
Rachel Elnar:Ballard neighborhood of Seattle. Can you tell us a little bit about the neighborhood you're in?
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. So Ballard historically, and Kevin probably knows even more because he's been here longer than I have, but historically, what is a Norwegian fishing town. And so if you look out these windows, you'll be able to see kind of the ship canal back here. And if you've seen the show Deadliest Catch, like the big fishing boats that go up to Alaska and the Bering Sea, Those are docked over here, many of them, at the fishermen what's it called? Fisherman's Terminal.
Aaron Shurts:Fisherman's Terminal. Yeah, across the way. And so that's really where the roots of Ballard started. And then as the years went on and tech became a thing in Seattle, a lot of the fishing industry moved to the suburbs in terms of because they all used to live here. They moved to the suburbs, and then a lot of the tech, which happens downtown, all of those individuals kind of started moving into Ballard.
Aaron Shurts:And so Ballard became kind of the area that was like the new and upcoming place to be. And that's really kind of how we ended up here, because our office was in a different space pre COVID. And once all of that happened, which was where you guys came before, and so you saw that, I did I'm pretty sure I sent the address. I didn't put on the invite. But I think you did.
Aaron Shurts:But I did send it. So yeah. I mean, only a mile away or whatever. But so COVID happened, and it was a much bigger space. The dynamic of how you use offices changed, and so then we decided to downsize.
Aaron Shurts:And that was kinda what how we ended up here. So a smaller space. I know you haven't been upstairs to the work area, but it's really just like a long area with desks where everybody kinda works. And then we have the conference room. Very few of our clients have places to meet anymore either.
Aaron Shurts:And so usually when we want to meet in person, this is the room we end up doing it with clients that want to meet because they don't have spaces anymore either.
Erik Cargill:Let's talk a little bit about your AIGA Seattle background. You both held offices within the chapter. And can you talk about which offices you held and which leadership retreats you went to?
Kevin Berger:Sure. Guess just starting out, let's see. So I was on the board, I think I served three years as programming director. And then from there, I moved into the vice president role and served there for two years with Jeff Barlow as president. And then when it was my turn to become president, I brought Aaron on, and he was my vice president.
Kevin Berger:So I was president. So that was, I think, 02/1112. Does that sound right?
Aaron Shurts:Sure.
Kevin Berger:Okay.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. It's a long time ago.
Kevin Berger:Yeah. And then I guess in terms of the leadership retreats that we went to, I think the first one I went to is Omaha, I think, which I don't think you were there, but I recall you were there. That was a fun one. And then after that, we did what? Chattanooga,
Aaron Shurts:Minneapolis. Minneapolis, then Chattanooga, I think.
Kevin Berger:Oh, okay. Yep. Minneapolis, Chattanooga, and then so Denver was the most recent.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. That's a lot.
Kevin Berger:I feel like there's others in there too, but who knows?
Erik Cargill:Yeah. How about you, Aaron?
Aaron Shurts:Yeah, so I started out in Charlotte, North Carolina, where I was on the board there. Never went to a leadership retreat. That was Omaha, which we I think we're a smaller chapter, so they would only send a couple people. Then moved to Seattle. And it's kinda funny because because Kevin I remember it was kind of a room like this where they were we were doing a portfolio review, and I had just moved to Seattle, I missed the board interviews because I was on the board in Charlotte.
Aaron Shurts:And I reached out to somebody. It might have been Mark Noterman. I don't really remember. But I said, hey. You know, I'd love to be involved.
Aaron Shurts:I just moved here from Charlotte. I was on the board there. Are you guys do you need any help? And, obviously, they were like, yes, because anybody who's a warm body that has experience, you said yes to. And and they were like, but we have to interview you.
Aaron Shurts:Like, yep. Cool. Get it. And so after the portfolio review ended, which I participated in, and then as a reviewer, we met in a room kinda like this, and they're all sitting around staring at me. It's like 10 people in this room judging me.
Aaron Shurts:And I remember meeting Kevin in that interview. I remember that. And it was Was kind of
Rachel Elnar:like
Erik Cargill:Kevin interviewing you? Yeah, I believe what we
Kevin Berger:were doing is we were being very efficient, where we were doing our reality check where all students came in, we were doing the reviews, then we were taking that time shortly thereafter or during or something like that to then have people come in and do interviews for the board positions.
Aaron Shurts:So I guess the interview went well because they asked me to be the volunteer director. But I the funny thing about meeting Kevin and remembering that moment is that we're we're really good friends. And we have been pretty much since I started joining the board. Yeah. And so it's kind of one of those things.
Aaron Shurts:Like, see, you meet someone and you can kind of tell that you would hit it off of this person, and we totally did. And so then I joined the board. I was a volunteer director, I think. I think that's right.
Kevin Berger:I think so. I think yeah. That sounds good.
Aaron Shurts:Because that was when I was teaching. So I had access to all these students that, you know, were very willing to do something when you told them to. So so that worked out really well. That was pretty easy for me to do that position. And then yeah.
Aaron Shurts:Then Kevin called me up one day and was like, hey. You know, we'd we'd love if you'd come on and help out as a VP. Sure. Yeah. Absolutely.
Aaron Shurts:And he's like, well, just so you know, you're kinda signing up for the next four years because at that time, the VP was a two year term, and then the president was selected, went straight from VP to president. Was pretty much pre decided,
Erik Cargill:yeah, that that would be the case.
Aaron Shurts:So it was like, okay, got it. Yep. Might as well because this, you know, what else am I gonna do? And I loved it. And yeah, so I ended up at Minneapolis was my first one.
Kevin Berger:Okay. Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:And then Chattanooga and Denver. So those were the three for me.
Rachel Elnar:So you were on the board at Chattanooga prior to Seattle. How long were you?
Aaron Shurts:No, that was in Seattle.
Rachel Elnar:That was in Seattle.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. So my first leadership retreat was in Minneapolis. Okay. Then Chattanooga was after that.
Rachel Elnar:Oh, got it. Got it. Okay. I thought you had moved from
Aaron Shurts:No. No. Omaha was the one that I Okay.
Kevin Berger:Got it.
Aaron Shurts:Okay. So
Rachel Elnar:what were some of the things that you guys did while you were both in leadership in AIGA Seattle?
Kevin Berger:I don't know. Think thinking back then, I remember we were really trying to figure out how to run things a little bit more like a business, a little bit more structured. I feel like we were kind of running into the same issues over and over. And it just felt like, Okay, how can we get some continuity? How can we kind of like establish some protocol for how we do things so that we can carry that forward and have some memory?
Kevin Berger:And so that was one of our I think that's what we focused on at that time was really just like, what are the board role or what are the roles that we need? What are the volunteer roles that we need? How can we give people responsibility and have them be able to kind of grow and be able to build these certain roles and document that and capture that in a way that we could carry it forward? So I remember that being kind of a really big initiative for us. It's like, how can we structure this and what's that look like?
Kevin Berger:Within that, I remember programming also really wanting to kind of dial that in and not have everything be a one off. We were really finding with AIGA, and I think this is a lot true for a lot of chapters, that a lot of the one off scenarios just you just put too much work into it. And you're trying to reinvent the wheel every time. And so that can be challenging from both from a budgetary standpoint as well as just like burnout for people. So we were really trying to figure out how can we kind of make these things a little bit more turnkey and and still have really great events.
Kevin Berger:And so I think we came up with like Schmooze, which was kind of just your typical social. Like, I think all designers just want to kind of get together and hang out and have a drink or two. So we kind of made sure we kind of we got someone in charge of that and that kind of ran turnkey. So that was just really took one volunteer to kind of coordinate that. I think we did some like kind of like really kind of key like kind of like skyscraper events where we're like, we're going to put a lot of energy into these things.
Kevin Berger:I'm kind of hard pressed to think of what they are, but I think we had but we kind of mixed it up. So there's kind of like this foundational program that went on so that we were the chapter was busy, is thriving, there's a lot going on. And then we were able to kind of like insert these various kind of bigger events and such. I remember I think we did our twenty fifth anniversary party was one of the last parties that we did together. That a big one.
Erik Cargill:Southlake Union.
Kevin Berger:Yeah. Yeah. We've done Southlake.
Erik Cargill:I was at that. Yeah. You had a band play.
Kevin Berger:Yeah, we had a band play. I'm trying to call. Is that the one we have for that one? Do you remember?
Aaron Shurts:I don't remember.
Kevin Berger:This is like over fifteen years.
Erik Cargill:Yeah. Was a while ago.
Kevin Berger:I think it's okay. Know it's not I have a friend who's in this cover band called Def Leprechaun. And so another time we actually did a party and we did that over in Fremont. I do recall that one. I think we had Robin Ray.
Kevin Berger:She did a great poster for that event, a really cool one. And actually, it's kind of this is where this is kind of, I think, a topic that's really itching from the A. J. Perspective, right? Like, you're busy doing all these things.
Kevin Berger:Someone says they know a band. You coordinate with the band. You have this great designer artist that's doing this illustration poster for the event. And then all of a sudden, you know, I have a cabin up on Lopez Island. So I was doing all these things.
Kevin Berger:And then all of a sudden, like, I went into this little bar and grill on the island. I walk in there and I look and there's this little poster and I realize, oh my gosh, this is the same people that we just had play our event. And so it's just kind of weird how all these things come together. And I think that's part of AIGA is you just kind of have all these connections that you don't really realize at the time, but then over time, they just grow. And and it just it's just it's just such a great experience being able to connect all those dots.
Kevin Berger:So anyway, going back to the event. So, yeah, we had the big event. That was a big one for us because what we were really trying to do is recapture some of the history of what was going on, had happened over the twenty five years. So we reached out to a lot our a lot of the various people who participated in the early days of AIG Seattle, the fellows. We're really being very particular about selecting a new fellow for that party.
Kevin Berger:And we put together a whole timeline and history and found all these kind of old archival pieces from different studios and such. So it's really fun to really have that opportunity to really celebrate AIGA, Seattle and the local design community, and then kind of look also to like, what was the future going to look like? And I think that was kind of where we officially passed the baton over to you at that point.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. Hearing you talk kind of just jogging my memory on
Kevin Berger:a lot
Aaron Shurts:of stuff because when I remember when I came on with you, we were we were looking at the books and we were in the red. Do you remember that? And it was like, this isn't good because everything was sort of handed over. You know? Right?
Aaron Shurts:Yep. And so part of that business directive that we kind of came up with was, well, we can't be losing money on everything we do. That's not sustainable. That shouldn't be how you run this. And there was a lot of pressure too finding out after he convinced me to come on to realize that, oh, you're also on the hook financially if the the chapter goes under.
Aaron Shurts:Was like, oh, that's great. Cool. How how far how bad is it? Thanks for telling me. Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:Ahead of time.
Kevin Berger:May have left
Aaron Shurts:that out. Right. So I think that was a lot of it, right? Like just looking at, okay, if we're gonna do this, that's fine. We should.
Aaron Shurts:But actually, let's focus on making money on this thing that we're doing. And that was really what kind of drove us. And we did a good job, I think, the chapter out of that. Yeah. And then having a solid bank account was like, I think at one point we were like, oh, we've got $80 in the bank.
Aaron Shurts:Like, where did that come from? Yeah. You know? So we were proud of that, right? But then part of that was because we needed a lot to fund the we would do kind of a local conference too.
Aaron Shurts:And so that's a lot of money. There's a big expense that goes out upfront to pay for these things, right? Just like a wedding. And so we would do it was called Into the Woods. It was sort of like I think it was Minneapolis did design camp.
Kevin Berger:Yeah. If I remember correctly. I think they yeah. Originally, they had done that.
Aaron Shurts:They got all upset because we were calling it design camp, I think, is the story I heard.
Kevin Berger:Yep. So we had to rename it.
Aaron Shurts:So we had to rename it and rebrand it.
Kevin Berger:Rebrand it.
Aaron Shurts:Because, you know, Minneapolis. We love them. Hi, Seth. The recurring things were were interesting. I think the the conference was a lot of fun to be a part of.
Aaron Shurts:Mhmm. People would fly in, you know, from all over the place, and we'd we'd pull speakers from all over the world to come in and do these these events. So it was really cool, and we'd go out usually to a place called Leavenworth, which is a couple hours away from here. And that the struggle with that event was that it was hard to make money off of it. You put a lot of so then when I took over as president and we would do that, I think, every couple of years we put up put one on.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. It wasn't an every year
Kevin Berger:thing. I've I've recalled there being a period where we thought we were gonna do it, we kept kinda having to push it out because we didn't get ahead of it in terms of So I think we had a couple years where we didn't have it and then we set up that every other year.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. And so then I took that over and I because I'd helped plan the one before that and then it was my time to kind of help run it. We moved venues because, again, the focus was can we make money off this event? It was still really hard to make money off of it no matter how you did it, but people loved the event so much. It was like we have to kinda keep doing it.
Aaron Shurts:Right? And so just knowing that, know we're going to lose a little bit no matter what we do.
Erik Cargill:Were you guys on the board when the mattresses caught on fire and all that stuff?
Kevin Berger:Did you hear about this or the mattress getting dunked into the believe.
Aaron Shurts:Mattress got dunked into the fountain.
Erik Cargill:No, no.
Aaron Shurts:I had never even heard that story.
Erik Cargill:Was an early Something caught on fire. Might have
Kevin Berger:it for your time.
Erik Cargill:Yeah. I don't remember the fire.
Aaron Shurts:And
Erik Cargill:AGA Seattle was asked to leave that venue, like don't come back. Is this Sleeping Lady Live? Sleeping Lady, and then it was, after that it was But we were able to come back.
Kevin Berger:Yeah, I think we eventually were able to go back, but.
Erik Cargill:Oh yeah because I
Aaron Shurts:remember I planned the one at Sleeping Lady and if there was a fire there I would have remembered that. No,
Kevin Berger:I feel like it's it's always there and then we went to Suncadia. Suncadia. Yeah yeah You were there,
Aaron Shurts:right? That was the one that I ran.
Kevin Berger:That's the one you ran.
Aaron Shurts:But it wasn't because we weren't allowed at Sleeping Lady. We just didn't have the funds really to do it.
Erik Cargill:Okay, so maybe this has just gotten blown out of I like proportion in the story though.
Aaron Shurts:We should add to it.
Erik Cargill:I mean, why not?
Aaron Shurts:Mean, so the mattresses caught on fire and then they set them down
Kevin Berger:the road. Then they put them in the fountain.
Erik Cargill:Then they
Aaron Shurts:put them
Erik Cargill:in To the Do put them you remember some of the people that you worked with on the board for AIGA Seattle?
Kevin Berger:Oh, sure. Sure. I mean, even going way back to the beginning, I think it's kind of interesting just to kind of share this. I mean, I feel like when I was at the UW and I was doing my undergrad and after graduating there, was kind of lost. I wasn't quite sure how to get into the design community, how to like involved.
Kevin Berger:And so a good friend of mine, Elmer Dela Cruz, I remember him saying, like, you got to come down, come to say AIGA thing. At that point, they're mostly kind of social get togethers in some form and they bring an artist out and talk or what have you. So I remember going down and just right away, like having Terry Marks and Jesse Doquilo who was one of the early presidents, really be like open and engaging and really remember my name and would, you know, and say hi every time I'd go back. And so that really made a big difference for me. I was a pretty shy kid.
Kevin Berger:So I really think about AIGA and kind of how that had such a big influence on me as a as a young designer. So I think kind of my whole that's part of the reason why I volunteered all these years and really wanted to be a part of it. I wanted to kind of help other young designers kind of feel like they have a place and have community. So I want to get that out of the way because I think that really does. Terry Marks is just amazing.
Kevin Berger:Jesse Duquillo, all those guys, you know, I consider them kind of the old guard, but I I guess, you know, here we go. Terry Marks coming back around, I guess.
Aaron Shurts:So here we go. Yeah. Love Terry. Wendy's back.
Kevin Berger:Wendy's back. Yep. Wendy's back. So, yeah, there's just so many great people. I mean, who else?
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. I feel I feel like it's dangerous to start naming names because we're gonna forget people. Right?
Kevin Berger:I know. I know.
Aaron Shurts:The some of the people that come to mind, Mark Noterman, he's still around.
Kevin Berger:Yes. Yeah. He Mark's awesome. Yeah. I think he had every position on the board at some
Aaron Shurts:point. Probably. Gage, Gage Mitchell, he's still around. John Close. John.
Aaron Shurts:John moved to Salt Lake City.
Kevin Berger:Did he move? Okay. Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:Who else? Brandon Shanley. We all know Brandon.
Rachel Elnar:Oh, yeah. Mhmm.
Aaron Shurts:Yep. He moved as well. So he's not here anymore, but he was president and so was Gage after me. That's right. I think it was Gage and then Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:Brandon after
Kevin Berger:Jim Craig, I remember being on the board with Christine
Aaron Shurts:Johnson, Jenny Lam. Yep. Yep.
Rachel Elnar:Jenny Lam?
Kevin Berger:Yeah. Jenny. Okay.
Aaron Shurts:Yep. She's over at Oracle.
Kevin Berger:Yeah. Yeah. She drove a lot of the, I think kind of the early UX kind of programming that we were doing at the chapter. So we're trying to kind
Erik Cargill:of diversify a little
Rachel Elnar:A lot of
Aaron Shurts:A lot of great Yeah, keeps going on and on. But yeah,
Rachel Elnar:know. Yeah, amazing.
Erik Cargill:You guys attended some leadership retreats together. One of my favorite stories is a time in Denver, but we'll get to that. What are some of the things that you guys remember about those retreats that you attended together, either the actual programming or outside of that?
Aaron Shurts:Well, Kevin and I always shared a room. So that's one thing that I always remember, which I think is funny. Yeah. Now we're like, what? Share a room.
Aaron Shurts:Are you serious? Mainly because of the financial situation that the chapter was in because the chapter would pay for us to go, but then it would also be like, well, we don't need to spend all this money on everybody staying. So the first one that I attended, and this is the sentiment that I feel like I've heard from many first timers at leadership retreats, is it's this very eye opening, almost like blown away euphoric experience where you're you're in this place with I don't know how many people would attend these. Would it be like a thousand, a couple thousand people? I don't remember.
Rachel Elnar:From the leadership retreat?
Aaron Shurts:Maybe not
Kevin Berger:that many.
Rachel Elnar:It's typical two to 300.
Erik Cargill:300. Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:But you're in these rooms and these meetings with all these people that have the same amount of passion and think the same way you do and are also into design. Because design is one thing, but then it's the everything else that goes along with it that creates this unique experience in this environment. And you can't replicate that, I don't think, at just normal conferences, normal design conferences. Because again, design is one thing, but everything else, the fact that we're all volunteers, we all give a great amount of time and effort and thoughtful care into this because we care about it so much. And then you get together and you talk about it.
Aaron Shurts:You talk about these issues. Like, when we like, we talked about the the financial problems. We weren't the only ones with the financial problem, right? You go in there and there's all these other people that are like, you know what? We should talk about this because we actually solved that last year.
Aaron Shurts:And so no matter what the thing was, whatever the topic was, could be programming, whatever, there were so many people that had experienced that before or were in in that with you at the same time. And so for me, that was a big thing, realizing, wow. I can have immediate connection with all these people across the nation now. And it was like instant friends. Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. It was like college on steroids.
Rachel Elnar:Yes. That's a
Aaron Shurts:big thing.
Kevin Berger:It's so true. I mean, I think it's just where you really see the power of your network, right? Like you start to kind of create you have this network and you have these common people and you've encountered the same issues and challenges and successes, and it's someone that can relate to you that you can share and learn from. I mean, that's just such a great community that I think that really I think you're exactly right. Like going to those leadership retreats and meeting those people and seeing that they're facing the same challenges you are and overcoming them and learning from them and sharing with them and just getting to spend time with other people.
Kevin Berger:And also people there from geographically from other locations, you know, just realizing that there's just people everywhere, you know, that it's not I I don't know, I think the world can be a little small when you just go to your one university and you stay in your one town and and AIGA really opens that up for you.
Rachel Elnar:I think I realize there is the same challenges even if it's a small chapter or a large chapter. They might not be identical and they're going through different things, but you could teach them because you have a larger chapter or more membership or you can learn from them because they've been able to solve it. And so there was no hierarchy, it felt like.
Kevin Berger:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. It was really cool.
Aaron Shurts:I do remember the first time I met Aaron Hamilton from Alaska.
Kevin Berger:Oh, yeah.
Aaron Shurts:Because I had never been to Alaska. In my head, which is funny to think about because Kevin and I have been to Alaska like 20 times now on fishing trips together. But I remember thinking, wow, they're from Alaska. This like this whole other place. It's like it's like you might as well be from like Germany or something.
Aaron Shurts:I was like, did they even get here?
Erik Cargill:It's so
Kevin Berger:That's cool.
Rachel Elnar:It is so weird to think. I mean, I think about location, right? You say any state and you right away connect it to people that you know.
Kevin Berger:I feel that pays off too, you know, as you kind of grow and even after maybe you move on, you're not on the board, like you're still, you know, there's there's relationships that I've formed where I've been able to get business from that or even just be able to kind of find resources that maybe help me in my professional life or even my personal life, you know, just getting some good tips on, hey, I'm going to be in town. Where should I go to get some good food? So it's just really nice having this family that you can reach out to and you can find in any corner of The United States. It's pretty cool.
Rachel Elnar:This family is definitely strong. Yeah. I mean, you and I, we could probably talk about first name on first name basis, right? And we would know exactly who. And it was just kind of that golden era.
Rachel Elnar:Like, I don't think it exists anymore or maybe it existed for other cohorts or different years or whatnot. But I just feel like that ours is so strong and it could be because of the timing of everyone keeping track of each other on Facebook afterwards or whatever. But there was definitely like a need to, I'll see you at Portland. I'll see you at Minneapolis. I'll see you, right?
Rachel Elnar:I'll see you at Dallas. Like everybody is, who's going be there? Who's going to be there?
Kevin Berger:Oh yeah. He didn't want to miss out. That was the, they're always looking forward to those retreats. Right. Right.
Kevin Berger:All right.
Rachel Elnar:So let's talk about debauchery.
Erik Cargill:Debauchery. Debauchery. Well, I can tell the hot dog story, but I can tell you guys that this story is a lot bigger in my head than in reality.
Aaron Shurts:I want to hear your version of it.
Erik Cargill:My version of it is, I was new to the board. I had been on the board for maybe a month previously. And so I went to Denver and then you guys showed up. So to me, you guys were the veterans, the rock stars of the local Seattle design industry. And so I don't know what time it is.
Erik Cargill:It's very late.
Aaron Shurts:It was like 3AM.
Erik Cargill:It's like 3AM. It's like 3AM and we're in the lobby and I don't know who said, Let's go get a hot dog, but I was standing there
Aaron Shurts:next probably to you errands. Was that me? Yeah. That sounds great. It sounds like something I would say.
Erik Cargill:We went and got a hot dog. So now Denver, maybe you remember this, Rachel. There was like a street car that went down the middle of this downtown corridor and just a lot of bedlam happening, especially at 3AM. A lot noise and commotion and everything. And so we go to a hot dog stand, which isn't very far from the hotel, and we grab a hot dog.
Erik Cargill:And none of us are saying a word to each other. But I mean, you guys obviously have chemistry together in terms of you guys have known each other for a long time. And in my mind, it's hilarious that we're standing on the street corner eating hot dogs, not saying a word to each other. But at some point we all like lock eyes with each other and just kind of nod like recognition of this commotion that's going on. I think there was a fight that broke out at some point or somebody was trying to break up a fight and we weren't making any effort to get out of the way.
Erik Cargill:It was just we were just part of the scene, just like, yeah, okay. I mean, this happens all the time sort of thing. And it was just one of those things that I remember as being a wonderful memory of my first leadership retreat. You guys being there and you guys asked me to have a hot dog with you. I was like, Oh yeah.
Erik Cargill:I was the fanboy.
Kevin Berger:I love hearing you tell that story because, know, from my perspective, we were just having a hot dog.
Aaron Shurts:I was like, big deal, right? Do kind of remember the middle of the street thing because I feel like somebody yelled something, but I don't remember what.
Erik Cargill:Yeah, I don't remember the specifics. I just remembered, yeah, there was a lot of drunk people around and weird stuff happens. It's pretty inconsequential, but just funny that you guys, you know, just watching you guys watch this, yeah, this happens to us all the time, you know, sort of thing.
Aaron Shurts:Well, it's pretty typical of leadership retreats, feel like. Yeah. That kind of weird stuff happened all the time.
Kevin Berger:Oh, yeah. And I think what was really interesting is like, you know, if you go to a conference or something, you know, it's very rare that you're going to have this big community, this big group, this posse that's going to go to all these different locations, right? Versus I feel like with the leadership retreat, you all are friends, you get together, like all of a sudden you just everyone just kind of aligns and you all just crash some, you know, whatever venue and everyone goes, everyone's there all at once. And it's just like, it's just so fun to have all your friends, everyone there. And it's bringing your community with you, I think, which is just I don't know, it's just it's really cool to have had that experience.
Kevin Berger:And I feel like if that's kind of what all those leadership retreats were like and kind of going out at night and doing all these things, I feel like they always ended in some kind of pyramid.
Aaron Shurts:Like, there's always Well, they didn't even just end in the pyramid. Because I remember Chattanooga, we were doing pyramids in strategic locations across the city.
Kevin Berger:Yes. That's true. We we came
Aaron Shurts:It was out like, being there was there was I don't know who started that, but it would be like all of a sudden a a text message would go out on whatever thing we were on. And it'd be yeah. It'd be like pyramid at this place at this time. And then everyone would show up there.
Erik Cargill:So it was like a pyramid scavenger hunt.
Kevin Berger:Saurus. Oh, yeah. It's like,
Erik Cargill:can we
Kevin Berger:do a pyramid?
Aaron Shurts:We did one in the elevator in the hotel, like, we packed as many people in the elevator as we could. How many? I don't There's a picture somewhere floating around.
Kevin Berger:I was kind of digging back through my Facebook just trying to remember some of the like kind of stories from from back then. There's there were a lot of pyramids. I'd say most of them were like three or four levels, but I feel like maybe we got up to like six or something at one point. What?
Aaron Shurts:Yeah, I was always on the bottom, so.
Kevin Berger:Yeah, me
Aaron Shurts:too. With my Helvetica shirt on. Right. I
Rachel Elnar:love the pyramid. So obviously 3AM, you guys were drinking
Kevin Berger:prior, right?
Rachel Elnar:No. Did you just wake up?
Erik Cargill:I think if I'm not mistaken, it's so you guys had just come into town, but we crashed the bar because there were only two bartenders on duty or two or three, and we filled the place. We just absolutely filled the place. I think she sent photos and yeah, I mean, was just a sea of people and they were just overwhelmed by us. We were exchanging, I was with Gage and we were taking selfies and saying, Hey, we're going to this place. And then I get a selfie of Aaron flipping us off like.
Aaron Shurts:Sounds right. Yep. Like, I'll see
Kevin Berger:you there.
Erik Cargill:Which, you know, I considered that a rite of passage at the time. So yeah, it was fun. Yeah. That's exactly how
Aaron Shurts:Do you remember this might've been Chattanooga. I can't remember his name. He was the maybe you guys do. He was the president of Raleigh at the time. He was the one that all the the ladies had a crush on.
Kevin Berger:Matt Oh, Matt.
Aaron Shurts:Oh, yeah. Alert. All I had to do is say crush on.
Kevin Berger:And you're
Aaron Shurts:like, oh, Matt Enios.
Kevin Berger:Got it.
Aaron Shurts:I remember he was like a slide wizard. Remember? He would, like, crank out. We would have a conversation. It would be like, we'd be in some breakout.
Aaron Shurts:This isn't the story, but he would be on some breakout, and there would be, like, notes written. And then you'd have to present, like, to the larger group, like, what your group talked about. And he would have, a whole presentation. And it was, like, ten minutes had gone by. And it was, like, what?
Aaron Shurts:What?
Kevin Berger:I forgot about that. Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:Now it's, AI would just do it. He was like AI the AI slide wizard Totally. Like, 12.
Kevin Berger:Meanwhile, you're putting your, like, handwritten scribble stage up on there.
Aaron Shurts:So and maybe that's maybe that's where this whole thing came from. And I and I was like, man, I need to Are we allowed to swear on here?
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. Fuck. Okay.
Aaron Shurts:I was like, you need to fuck with him. Yeah. Because all the women are like I volleying over themselves with this mean, he's cool. Like, I like him, but like,
Erik Cargill:the hell.
Aaron Shurts:So so and he was I guess he was a swimmer. I don't know, like at the college level or something. And so there was a pool at the hotel and I remember I challenged him to a swim off. Did you really? Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:And and this became like a whole thing. Meanwhile, I don't swim. And and this was when I was in better shape because I was always a basketball player. So it was convincing. Okay.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. He looked like he could be a swimmer. And I made up this whole fake story. I think it was on Facebook or some group channel that we were all on. And I was like, Challenge him to a swim off at the pool.
Aaron Shurts:So then everyone shows up. I just thought it was funny at first. It was just like a funny joke, but then people started taking it seriously. And I never was to begin with. And so then we go out, it's like at 04:00 in the afternoon, and there's a, like the entire retreat is there.
Aaron Shurts:Oh, come here. And so and so then we we started off. We swim. And I I'm not a swimmer. So I just grabbed onto him and, like, drug him down.
Aaron Shurts:Oh, wow. Then, like, started, like, running across the because I was a lot stronger than he was. Yeah. Matt. Probably still am.
Rachel Elnar:That was fighting words.
Aaron Shurts:And then and so then I went, and there everyone was like, what the hell? I was like, why didn't say there was rules? And then first of all, I just made this up to begin with. So that was a story that I just thought about. That was one of the good ones.
Erik Cargill:Good story. Yeah. That is and where was this?
Aaron Shurts:I think it was Chattanooga because it wouldn't have been in Minneapolis because I didn't know
Erik Cargill:him then. And it wasn't a lot
Kevin Berger:in Chattanooga, so I think we had spent more time like in the hotel.
Aaron Shurts:So that's the only thing I can think of is maybe Chattanooga. Okay. But I remember the hotel had this pool and then it had a really big pool deck around it, So it could fit like hundreds of people standing around it, which is what happened. I think even Rick was there.
Kevin Berger:Oh, yeah.
Aaron Shurts:Rick, and then I forget who he always had, like, assistants with him. I don't remember. Denise?
Rachel Elnar:What?
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. It was probably Denise. Yes. I think Denise was there too, which I think Denise was also a swimmer back in the day.
Rachel Elnar:Okay.
Aaron Shurts:So I don't know where this whole swimming connection came from, which I was suddenly thrown into. But yes, they were all there.
Rachel Elnar:Oh my god. I can't even picture that. The whole retreat around the pool watching you plus Rick Griffin.
Aaron Shurts:Yes.
Rachel Elnar:And Denise Wood.
Erik Cargill:Yep.
Kevin Berger:Alright. Guys, we need photos. Yeah.
Rachel Elnar:Need photos, guys. So please go I
Aaron Shurts:think there's probably photos that someone else has. Was swimming. I was swimming. So
Erik Cargill:And if you look into the camera, you could rematch. I mean, if you wanna
Rachel Elnar:Oh, there you go. If you wanna tell Matt.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. Mean, he knows that there's no rules. So who knows? But it had to be a different it 'd have to be a different thing. It can't be swimming this time.
Aaron Shurts:Basketball? Basketball, possibly. There you go. There you go.
Rachel Elnar:Hilarious. Alright. Well, I didn't go to Chattanooga, so thank you for sharing that. That helps.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. I'm sure if we sat here long enough, we'd think I of would some good
Rachel Elnar:love to know a little bit more about the planned pyramids that I had never heard of. In Omaha, just happen whenever, right? We didn't have phones. So how did we connect other than the Sharpie? I remember
Kevin Berger:him starting out that way. It was kind of like as a new idea, we're all in the room. Hey, let's start a pyramid. A couple people get on top, and then it just kind of like grew and it became a thing. Then you find yourself at the next night doing something all of a sudden, pyramid time, you know, enough.
Kevin Berger:But then it started to become like it was the goal. It was the objective. Like, where are we going to go and where are we going to get these pyramids?
Aaron Shurts:Where is it going to Where
Kevin Berger:are get these pyramids? And what's unique? The elevator.
Aaron Shurts:Yep. We were doing on the street as because I remember Chattanooga, everything was really far apart. And so like when you were trying to go to a bar as a group, you'd have to walk like a mile.
Kevin Berger:That's right.
Aaron Shurts:To get from one place to another. So it'd be like a group of people all walking together, and then you'd find another group and you'd be like, Hey, come walk with us. And then eventually it'd be like, Stop, pyramid time.
Kevin Berger:Pyramid time.
Aaron Shurts:So then it'd be like in the middle of the street and everyone walking by, you know, the random Chattanoogaans were Chattanoogans? What? Chattanoogans? Chattanoogans? Chattanoogans?
Aaron Shurts:I think that works. We're like, what is happening?
Erik Cargill:Yeah. What the hell?
Aaron Shurts:I think we recruited some of them or had them take pictures too. So somehow the pyramid became a thing that everyone just really loved to see, even randoms and sometimes people were annoyed. But for the most
Kevin Berger:part, yeah. Remember maybe like the hotel staff had an issue with it. But other than that.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. There's pyramids in the lobby.
Kevin Berger:Yeah, lobby. Elevator, hallways.
Aaron Shurts:Those are Sometimes pretty in people's rooms. Parties were always, yeah, room parties were always a thing.
Erik Cargill:Room parties. Somebody talked about between beds, pyramid between- Between,
Aaron Shurts:oh between- I remember between the Yeah.
Kevin Berger:Oh, like,
Erik Cargill:Structurally, like, how do you,
Rachel Elnar:Really?
Aaron Shurts:Yep. Varick and I, for sure.
Kevin Berger:Remember that. You and Varick. Yeah. Yeah. I'm It it always ended
Aaron Shurts:up being, like, two or three people at the very end.
Kevin Berger:Yeah. I remember there's one night. I I forget. Maybe it's Minneapolis where we all just went out, and we we decided we're just, like, dancing that whole night and, like, in that one club. And then and then just felt like after that, we went somewhere else.
Kevin Berger:And, yeah, before we knew it, it 6AM.
Aaron Shurts:I remember that 6AM club was always in the hotel lobby.
Kevin Berger:Yeah. Just
Aaron Shurts:sitting there like this at the
Kevin Berger:end. Yeah. And you keep saying, like, okay.
Aaron Shurts:I'm gonna
Kevin Berger:go to bed.
Aaron Shurts:I'm gonna go
Kevin Berger:to bed.
Aaron Shurts:Then you get to the point where you're like, is it is it the hurry at? Is it time yet? And then and it was always at the end when everyone was leaving. We'd be up all night, and then we'd be saying goodbye to everyone. Because I remember that from Denver specifically.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. Because people would be getting their flights then. And so they'd be leaving. So they'd be checking out. We'd start goodbye.
Aaron Shurts:Funneling
Erik Cargill:out. You're wearing
Aaron Shurts:the same clothes from last night. Even been to Vegas.
Rachel Elnar:Okay. So the last thing is karaoke. Want to know about this karaoke situation with Alicia.
Aaron Shurts:So, yeah, we ended up going I don't even know where this was because you don't remember it, and you don't remember It
Erik Cargill:was Denver.
Kevin Berger:I vaguely
Aaron Shurts:I remember remember it's Denver, but
Erik Cargill:So I don't really remember it.
Aaron Shurts:Alicia was there and Aaron Hamilton was there. And maybe Brandt Brendan.
Kevin Berger:Yeah, I think so. I think it was Alicia's idea, though, wasn't it? Probably. I remember someone was championing this. We gotta go to Denver.
Kevin Berger:And places. And she'd she'd done done all all the the research. Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:So we go, and I only, at that time, only did one karaoke song, and that was Proud Mary, like the Tina Turner version.
Erik Cargill:Right. Because there was choreography. Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:There was choreography. I was like, I'm only doing it if I have backup dancers.
Rachel Elnar:No wonder.
Aaron Shurts:And so that was how that all happened. And because I don't really sing very well, but I can perform. You nailed it. So yeah, yeah. There's a lot of this, you know, a lot of jazz hands.
Aaron Shurts:Know, shove in place.
Erik Cargill:Running in place. And
Aaron Shurts:yeah. Yeah, and everyone, it was like we had never trained a day in our lives, but had been training our whole lives. Yeah. Because it all just gelled. It was a highlight.
Kevin Berger:That was. It's funny because we mentioned it earlier and I didn't remember it, but now that we've kind of put the names with it and kind of talked a little bit more like just come flooding back. That's exactly I remember.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah, was pretty funny.
Kevin Berger:Is it
Erik Cargill:not on the Denver Facebook page?
Aaron Shurts:I may probably. I don't know.
Rachel Elnar:Think so. I
Kevin Berger:couldn't find a lot of documentation of these.
Rachel Elnar:A lot of the really fast things that happen have no recordings. Yeah. Were just alone in the moment. Yeah. This is and this is the whole point of the podcast.
Aaron Shurts:It's we're sitting around the campfire. Exactly.
Erik Cargill:Yeah. Cave people.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. I just saw one photo.
Aaron Shurts:You saw one photo?
Rachel Elnar:Just one photo with her with sunglasses and doing something like this.
Aaron Shurts:They all somehow they all have gray bands. I don't know how this happened, but everyone had like outfits all of a sudden.
Kevin Berger:I'm going
Erik Cargill:to look on my phone after this, and I saw it. I did see it.
Kevin Berger:A video? The video.
Rachel Elnar:Okay. We want to
Aaron Shurts:see I
Erik Cargill:know it exists somewhere.
Kevin Berger:Now you say that, I feel like it was shared out afterwards. Just don't remember what medium was it. Some other platform that maybe we've forgotten about or maybe it was Did somebody Like Flickr or something. Yeah.
Aaron Shurts:It's kind of what I'm wondering. Like it's Flickr or something or Flickr. Oh my god. Let's all date ourselves.
Kevin Berger:So sad.
Rachel Elnar:Oh, I love it. Awesome. Well, you so much. It was great living all these memories. Hilarious memories, by the way.
Aaron Shurts:Absolutely. Yeah. Let's let's make do it. I agree.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah, I wish we could get back into leadership retreats. I mean, you guys doing anything with leadership now or do
Aaron Shurts:you Well, do anything with the the chapter is kind of starting Yeah, chapter started back back up up It's kind of COVID hurt the chapter. Yeah. So that's kind of how that happened. And then there were some a lot of figuring out of like, who has the Mailchimp access?
Kevin Berger:Yeah, all of a sudden no one
Aaron Shurts:No one had access to anything. Anything. Yeah. So I think they've maybe gotten that all figured out now.
Kevin Berger:Yeah. Sounds like
Aaron Shurts:So it kind of just depends on where that goes. But I don't know. Life has kind of
Erik Cargill:changed. Yeah. It's it's it's taken
Aaron Shurts:a different path as far as that goes. I mean, I kinda stopped too at that time because I had just started the agency Mhmm. And just had a child. So it was like, I can't take on anything else at that point because I kind of rolled off the presidency and then I was like, I got to take a break.
Kevin Berger:Yeah, that was similar to me. I rolled off. And then at that point in my career, with the agency and just kind of really focusing and a lot more travel, a lot more work. Just kind of different priorities at that point. But I mean, again, I think the leadership being a part of that, though, in all those years is just so amazing and such a great way of building confidence and just kind of being able to kind of like groom myself for a better position and be more of a leader in my day to day.
Kevin Berger:So I just, again, I think it's just, it's great. And I think you got to leave room for other people to kind of step in and take on those roles and have those learnings as well.
Rachel Elnar:Oh yeah, most definitely. But they need mentors. I can tell you right now, people are just getting back in, knowing what they're doing and things So like for me, starting this podcast helps to connect those two things together, like our past and the future.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I would absolutely be involved. I think my my main thing was I just don't know where what it's going to become Yeah. Quite yet into what that means.
Aaron Shurts:So whether that's just being involved in the design community at large or specifically through AIGA or whatever the new thing becomes, you know, That's really where I see myself kind of finding a heading. Now that I'm beyond, my daughter's 10 and the agency's 10, almost 11. So it's kind of like they're both running on their own now, right? So I have a little more time to spend, but yeah, I've done a lot more with my life. I've gotten really involved in the kind of marine industry out here.
Aaron Shurts:I'm a certified charter captain now. So, like, I take people out fishing and and Kevin and I go on these trips. And I'm out on the water probably two or three days a week in the summer, you know. So it's like I've just found these other things that I didn't wasn't a part of my life then. And so it would be interesting to kind of blend those things together now.
Aaron Shurts:So we'll see where all that goes.
Kevin Berger:You're gonna take us out on your boat then.
Aaron Shurts:Well, offered it. Remember? Yeah. Offered it. And then, yeah, we we ended up here.
Rachel Elnar:Which is great.
Aaron Shurts:Which is great. It's got brick walls.
Kevin Berger:Yes. We'll do it while the while the chapter's really small.
Rachel Elnar:They Exactly.
Aaron Shurts:Yeah. We'll have our our our board retreats out on the water.
Rachel Elnar:Well, again, thank you so much. Appreciate you.
Erik Cargill:Thank you, guys. Of course. Thank you, guys.
Rachel Elnar:Yeah. Is great. Exciting.
Kevin Berger:Yeah. This is great.
Aaron Shurts:Is fun. Thanks for having us. Yeah.
Rachel Elnar:We did record. Right?
Aaron Shurts:Are we gonna do it again? I don't know.
Rachel Elnar:Cheers and tiers. We'll be back next time with more design leadership tales retold.
Erik Cargill:Please subscribe, rate, review, and share this podcast with your creative community, design leaders, and friends.
Rachel Elnar:Cheers and Tiers design leadership tales retold is a production of chapter two and hosted by us, Rachel Elner and Erik Cargill. This episode was produced and edited by Rachel Elnar. Podcast graphics by Erik Cargill. Animation by Verso Design and Megatoe Design.
Erik Cargill:The theme music track is Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans. Follow cheers and tiers on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube podcasts, or wherever you get your audio and video podcasts. Subscribe to our email list@cheersandtiers.com so you don't miss an episode.